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Twin Jewsih Messiahs?

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
There’s your logical leap. God says he will do it himself. Then you introduce this other Jesus character and equate him with God. But there is nothing driving that.
The drive is what is within the texts. Yeshua/Yehoshua already existed within the Tanakh; some times even question was the text made up to fit it so precisely.
Yes, God. Not a person.
Same thing.

The Most High is like a CPU manifesting reality, it's easy for it to make what it wants.
So good job completely misreading the text.
Oops you're right, sorry Zechariah 12:4 was misread in context of the chapter. :oops:
No mention of sacrifice.
'he was wounded for our transgressions' (Isaiah 53:5), 'he shall bear our iniquities' (Isaiah 53:11), 'laid on him the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6), 'he was cut off from the land of the living, for the transgression of our people' (Isaiah 53:8), etc....
The whole chapter is about a sacrifice taking place, would explain the complexities of it, and show the finer points of how it fits together; yet we're on basics, that are denied, before even attempting to understand it. :innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The whole chapter is about a sacrifice taking place, would explain the complexities of it, and show the finer points of how it fits together; yet we're on basics, that are denied, before even attempting to understand it. :innocent:
NO, the chapter isn't at all about sacrifice. The word sacrifice never appears.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
NO, the chapter isn't at all about sacrifice. The word sacrifice never appears.
YES, the chapter is about a sacrifice! << See how i win with the big text! :p

Anyways enough of being silly...

When we look at the many contextual references within Isaiah 53, there is an overall majority who believe the suffering servant, shall receive the things contained. :(

Don't know why then anyone would want to make that either tribe (Israel & Judah) to have to suffer them things. :oops:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
YES, the chapter is about a sacrifice! << See how i win with the big text! :p

Anyways enough of being silly...

When we look at the many contextual references within Isaiah 53, there is an overall majority who believe the suffering servant, shall receive the things contained. :(

Don't know why then anyone would want to make that either tribe (Israel & Judah) to have to suffer them things. :oops:
No, it isn't. See how I don't need big text when the verses, themselves, support my point?
There is no mention of sacrifice. There is discussion of suffering but not sacrifice.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
See how I don't need big text when the verses, themselves, support my point?
Unfortunately since you're the one who has used big text to emphasize your beliefs, this makes us at a bit of a stand still...

As you're in denial of all the textual statements already posted....

I get it as most of the Jews I've spoken to do this, they dismiss what they can, and then miss the bits they can't answer.

So will post these statements again, which all place some form of atonement on the death of the servant, and not just to suffer, yet death; unless we want to miss bits to make it fit with what you've been told to believe.
'he was wounded for our transgressions' (Isaiah 53:5), 'he shall bear our iniquities' (Isaiah 53:11), 'laid on him were the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6), 'he was cut off from the land of the living, for the transgression of our people' (Isaiah 53:8), etc....
In Isaiah, it is used to refer to restitution
When applying only one translation on something, to make it fit with a presupposition, this is faulty logic; we should check how a word is used in contexts, and see if that applies to its meaning within the context.

When we go back to Leviticus, we find 'âshâm' used on its own to mean to give an offering for sin.... Can't then change the meaning of the word, so it no longer applies to suit an agenda. :innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately since you're the one who has used big text to emphasize your beliefs, this makes us at a bit of a stand still...
Actually, I never used big text. In one case, I did use a 2 letter word with both letters capitalized. If you confuse that with big text, then that's on you.

You then quote verses from Isaiah -- 53 5 through 11 (effectively, though you jump around and take things out of context) and decide that because there is language of one servant suffering because of the behavior of another group (the kingdoms of the world, introduced as those who are realizing Israel's place, at the end of 52) that this is the same as a sacrifice. That's an invention that you make -- an equivalence that you decide has to be there but which simply isn't.

I know it must be tough to hear -- it often is for Christians, especially those who insist they aren't Christian, but the text says what it says, not some fanciful allusion that you need in order to have any basis for your entire belief system. Isaiah uses all sorts of words to express the suffering of God's servant: ,חֹלִי , מְחֹלָל , חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם , מְדֻכָּא , נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה and even לַטֶּבַח but not a single word to indicate sacrifice. In fact, the only word that you can cite that might be connected to any sacrifice is one which would point to the wrong sacrifice (not that, under Jewish law, any particular sacrifice would atone for what the verses talk about, but hey, what do Jews know about their own laws...you know better, I'm sure).

When applying only one translation on something, to make it fit with a presupposition, this is faulty logic; we should check how a word is used in contexts, and see if that applies to its meaning within the context.
When applying any translation, one must look at the word and how it is used including other words around it. To take a single meaning and be driven by the conclusion you need to apply is flawed reasoning. I quoted Gen 41:9 but you can't understand because it would undermine the essence of your theology.
When we go back to Leviticus, we find 'âshâm' used on its own to mean to give an offering for sin.... Can't then change the meaning of the word, so it no longer applies to suit an agenda. :innocent:
You might want to tell that to Gen 26:10. In Lev it is never used "on its own to mean to give an offering for sin." It is always used in a verse which is already talking about sacrifices for specific categories of sin.
5:19 "and he shall bring an unblemished ram from the flock, of the proper value as an asham...an asham it is, he has become guilty before God"
7:5 "and the kohen will cause them to go up in smoke on the altar, a fire offering to God, an asham"
14:21 "If he is poor and his means are not sufficient, then he shall take one male lamb, an asham"
19:21 "he shall bring his guilt offering to God, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram asham."
(and these are just the instances which lack the definite article prefix which makes their meaning as a sacrifice even clearer)
I guess Proverbs 14:9 refers to a sacrifice also, and Sam 1, 6 which makes it clear that the restitution was mice and hemorrhoids. Not a sacrifice. Just restitution.

Stamp your feet all you want. You can't arbitrarily decide that the use of the word calls forth the particular meaning you need it to, regardless of use and context. Knowing Hebrew would really help you out here so you wouldn't keep insisting things which the text doesn't support.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
(the kingdoms of the world, introduced as those who are realizing Israel's place, at the end of 52) that this is the same as a sacrifice. That's an invention that you make
[GALLERY=media, 7635][/GALLERY]
Each time, placing a text as a certain meaning before questioning the rest, leads to faulty logic...

Then to always go on about what other people believe and determine, before even examining it, is what the ego does....

Try not to project on to others all the time, and there will be more clarity. ;)
not some fanciful allusion that you need in order to have any basis for your entire belief system.
So far my belief system hasn't really been the topic; we're on how Yeshua fulfilled the Biblical prophecy. :rolleyes:

As saying lets deal with the basics first, and then we can move on to the complexities of the prophets.
I quoted Gen 41:9 but you can't understand because it would undermine the essence of your theology.
Where is (אשׁם) in Genesis 41:9, yes there is the word guilt used....

Yet we're speaking specifically about the word 'âshâm' as found in Isaiah 53:10, which is repeatedly used throughout Leviticus to mean a sin offering.
which the text doesn't support.
Your whole argument is flawed repeatedly; first you need to acknowledge that Isaiah 53 talks on numerous occasions of a death of the suffering servant, which is done for atonement....

That would then define the 'asham' as being a sin offering, in the context of what is there. :innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
So far my belief system hasn't really been the topic; we're on how Yeshua fulfilled the Biblical prophecy. :rolleyes:
Exactly -- your belief system is predicated on the belief that Jesus fulfilled anything. Since he didn't, your entire system fails.

Where is (אשׁם) in Genesis 41:9, yes there is the word guilt used....

Yet we're speaking specifically about the word 'âshâm' as found in Isaiah 53:10, which is repeatedly used throughout Leviticus to mean a sin offering.
See what you did there? You just acknowledged that the word is used in Genesis but it isn't parallel because you want to be talking about how you think it is used in Isaiah, which you want to connect to Leviticus. In fact, it is used in Genesis in a way that is unrelated to Leviticus, and it is used in Isaiah in a way unrelated to Leviticus. You are trying to be selective about which times you connect meaning so you simply ignore all the others and insist "but that's different." Some texts talk about sacrifices, like Leviticus. Others don't, like Proverbs, Genesis and Isaiah.
Your whole argument is flawed repeatedly; first you need to acknowledge that Isaiah 53 talks on numerous occasions of a death of the suffering servant, which is done for atonement....
You keep making the same mistake, informed mostly by your use of translations and then supplemented by your Christian agenda. Suffering because of the actions of others does not make anyone a sacrifice (nor can a human be a sacrifice). There is no sacrifice in this chapter. There is restitution, a ransom -- the payment of the soul. I noted that in all the cases in Leviticus, the text explicitly mentions the sacrificial system but Isaiah doesn't, at all. It is more connected to Sam 1, 6. But you ignore this.
That would then define the 'asham' as being a sin offering, in the context of what is there. :innocent:
No, it defines asham as "restitution" as being a ransom paid in the context of what is there because the context lacks any mention of sacrifice.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Exactly -- your belief system is predicated on the belief that Jesus fulfilled anything.
Again making silly assumptions, my belief system is beyond your religious text.
Since he didn't, your entire system fails.
So far no one has been able to prove that...
See what you did there? You just acknowledged that the word is used in Genesis
Nope i didn't see that; I acknowledged there is an entirely different word there meaning 'Guilt' (חטא), and then you're applying that as the same word in Isaiah 53:10.
Some texts talk about sacrifices... Others don't like Isaiah.
Yet Isaiah 53 does, and you're just refusing to acknowledge any of the sentences listed within it, that imply the suffering servant shall be put to death, for the sake of atonement.
Suffering because of the actions of others does not make anyone a sacrifice
Isaiah 53:8 ...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ignoring most of the textual evidence, other than the bits you like within Isaiah 53 is ridiculous; plus sick, like you want to torture, and put to death 'Israel as the servants'. :(
nor can a human be a sacrifice
Now that we agree on, and why was showing that the 'Blemish' (Isaiah 52:14), is a start to showing why it isn't Kosher, and how the whole thing is a snare to catch out the workers of iniquity.
the text explicitly mentions the sacrificial system but Isaiah doesn't, at all.
Isaiah 53:1 is a 'rumor so far fetched who could have believed it'... Yet making it real, and about Israel is sick. :(

The whole text is explaining someone being tortured, put to death for the sake of them believing it to be some form of atonement; that is what the sacrificial system is all about. :facepalm:

Proverbs 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own opinion.
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
Again making silly assumptions, my belief system is beyond your religious text.

Yes, but it is predicated on a belief about my religious text. A wrong belief.


Nope i didn't see that; I acknowledged there is an entirely different word there meaning 'Guilt' (חטא), and then you're applying that as the same word in Isaiah 53:10.


You are confusing two points. One is that the word asham is used in Genesis 26 but doesn’t mean sacrifice and the second is that the word in Genesis 41 is proof that the use of a word that in other cases refers to sacrifice does not mean that in every case. Try to keep up.


Yet Isaiah 53 does, and you're just refusing to acknowledge any of the sentences listed within it, that imply the suffering servant shall be put to death, for the sake of atonement.


No, it doesn’t and you have yet to cite any words in it which show that it does. You at least are willing to admit that it is a function of implying. Maybe next you will see that it is actually only a function of your inferring. Regardless, sacrifice is absent.


Isaiah 53:8 ...for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Ignoring most of the textual evidence, other than the bits you like within Isaiah 53 is ridiculous; plus sick, like you want to torture, and put to death 'Israel as the servants'.
C:\Users\DANIEL~1.ROS\AppData\Local\Temp\4\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png


Cut off, stricken, wounded, bruised. All wonderful words that have nothing to do with sacrifices. In fact, elements which would invalidate a sacrifice. Thank you for proving my point.

Ignoring the words and relying on your fanciful inferences to try and see the text pointing to a specific human (and not any other) who doesn’t even satisfy the entire of the chapter is laughable. Repeatedly quoting the same verses as if that makes them mean something different is a sign of madness.


Now that we agree on, and why was showing that the 'Blemish' (Isaiah 52:14), is a start to showing why it isn't Kosher, and how the whole thing is a snare to catch out the workers of iniquity.


Not only isn’t the word properly translated as blemish (which would be מוּם) but if it was about a blemish on the servant, and yet the servant still is able to effect some sort of atonement, it would just prove that the entire concept has nothing to do with sacrifice.


Isaiah 53:1 is a 'rumor so far fetched who could have believed it'... Yet making it real, and about Israel is sick.
C:\Users\DANIEL~1.ROS\AppData\Local\Temp\4\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png


The whole text is explaining someone being tortured, put to death for the sake of them believing it to be some form of atonement; that is what the sacrificial system is all about.
C:\Users\DANIEL~1.ROS\AppData\Local\Temp\4\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg

Wow, another emoji, as if that makes your point any more cogent. You don’t seem to know what a sacrifice is under Jewish law because you think it involves torture. You think that the sacrificial system is “all about” atonement and that’s just plain wrong. Maybe you should study up before you make wild claims.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Yes, but it is predicated on a belief about my religious text.
Again carry on making assumptions; my theology isn't from your religious text... Find it all very limiting to be honest.

This is just about specifying what is stated within the text, and trying to help people understand it...

The plan is to remove all of it in Satya Yuga (Messianic Age), and start again; so you can keep your book. :)
One is that the word asham is used in Genesis 26 but doesn’t mean sacrifice and the second is that the word in Genesis 41 is proof that the use of a word that in other cases refers to sacrifice does not mean that in every case. Try to keep up.
I can't keep up with that; it is insane... There is a specific word used, then you start swapping to other words, and then say see it fits.
it doesn’t and you have yet to cite any words in it which show that it does.
It doesn't have to state a specific word, most people can read, and visualize what is being talked about.
Cut off from the land of the living = Dead.
who doesn’t even satisfy the entire of the chapter
Again lots of conjecture, and not much evidence; don't know of a flaw within it that doesn't fit with Yeshua.... If you have one, specify it, and will examine it.
yet the servant still is able to effect some sort of atonement
You're not listening, other than to your own opinion, this is ridiculous...

There is no atonement from murdering a human, with blemish, defiling the law in multiple places, and by making a covenant with death...

The whole thing is a snare to catch out the workers of iniquity, which can be shown across the Tanakh; yet this is pathetic, we've got pages going over the very basics.

What is worse is Yah-Avah made this whole case for his people, and instead they've rejected it, to try and make them self superior to the Gentiles. :facepalm:
Wow, another emoji, as if that makes your point any more cogent.
It does prove the point precisely, as you said 'you don't know how to do a facepalm', explained it, and yet you still don't know how... Which proves you don't listen. :hearnoevil:
You don’t seem to know what a sacrifice is under Jewish law because you think it involves torture.
That is what is specified in Isaiah 53; not the Levitical sacrificial system. :rolleyes:
You think that the sacrificial system is “all about” atonement
Don't even think it is about atonement, think it is an ancient barbaric custom, that was borrowed from the Egyptians, that wasn't instructed by Yah-Avah (Jeremiah 7:21-23, etc), and just proves who the workers of iniquity are, by their love of it. :innocent:
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
I can't keep up with that; it is insane... There is a specific word used, then you start swapping to other words, and then say see it fits.


Then you have a problem. There are two separate arguments being made, each of which proves you wrong. If suddenly you can’t keep up then you will remain ignorant.


It doesn't have to state a specific word, most people can read, and visualize what is being talked about.


Oh, I see. It doesn’t have to state what it means because you assume that people can figure out what you think it means and ignore what it actually does say. Got it.


Again lots of conjecture, and not much evidence; don't know of a flaw within it that doesn't fit with Yeshua.... If you have one, specify it, and will examine it.

That has been done time and time again. You should read – there is plenty of textual evidence to show that the suffering servant is Israel and can’t be Jesus. Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-53-a-jewish-perspective/

Suffering Servant Of Isaiah 53 - Part 1 - Rabbi Tovia Singer - TD13679


You're not listening, other than to your own opinion, this is ridiculous...

There is no atonement from murdering a human, with blemish, defiling the law in multiple places, and by making a covenant with death...

The whole thing is a snare to catch out the workers of iniquity, which can be shown across the Tanakh; yet this is pathetic, we've got pages going over the very basics.

What is worse is Yah-Avah made this whole case for his people, and instead they've rejected it, to try and make them self superior to the Gentiles.
C:\Users\Dan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.jpg


At this point you have stopped making any attempt at sense. You are throwing random phrases around (“defiling the law”? “the workers of iniquity”?) and you are still stuck on that invented yah avah thing that has no basis in the Hebrew. Then you close it all with this accusation about someone trying to make himself superior to someone else which is irrelevant and not at all part of anything. Wow. Just wow


It does prove the point precisely, as you said 'you don't know how to do a facepalm', explained it, and yet you still don't know how... Which proves you don't listen.
C:\Users\Dan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png


Swing and a miss. :facepalm: Just because I think it useless to use them doesn’t mean I don’t know how. And your insistence on using them doesn’t mean you know anything more than how to put an emoji in.


That is what is specified in Isaiah 53; not the Levitical sacrificial system.
C:\Users\Dan\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.png


Great, so you admit that Isaiah 53 is not about sacrifices. Finally. Though it does beg the question as to your insistence of connected the use of the word Asham to the Levitical sacrifices...weird how you want to play both sides.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
If suddenly you can’t keep up then you will remain ignorant.
Maybe you've not explained your case well enough; yet currently thinking your trying to make one word like murder equal kill, they're two separate words.
I'm Happy for you, smiling at last. :)
You are throwing random phrases around
None of it was random, it is numerous Biblical quotes paraphrased, to explain the 'Marvelous Work' within the Prophets.
someone trying to make himself superior to someone
It isn't against you, unlike yourself I'm not continually pointing fingers; just trying to relay the case, and avoid the daggers you're throwing every reply almost...

What was being presented was the Tanakh Case against Christianity by the prophets, and it was established by Yah-Avah....

It is meant to look like Isaiah 53 is that way, almost implying a sacrifice, to catch them out with the snare made in the text. :innocent:
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Maybe you've not explained your case well enough; yet currently thinking your trying to make one word like murder equal kill, they're two separate words.
There were two separate points. One was that the word Asham appears in Genesis but has nothing to do with sacrifices, and the other was that another word which is sometimes associated with sacrifices appears in Genesis but has nothing to do with sacrifices. Both show that your inference that the use of a word indicates a relevance to sacrifices is flat out wrong.

None of it was random, it is numerous Biblical quotes paraphrased, to explain the 'Marvelous Work' within the Prophets.
It is a bunch of translated phrases poorly linked together with no particular meaning.
It isn't against you, unlike yourself I'm not continually pointing fingers; just trying to relay the case, and avoid the daggers you're throwing every reply almost...
You see them as daggers because they make their point. I'm ok with that.
What was being presented was the Tanakh Case against Christianity by the prophets, and it was established by Yah-Avah....
The prophets made no case against Christianity. This "yah-avah" phrase is meaningless.
It is meant to look like Isaiah 53 is that way, almost implying a sacrifice, to catch them out with the snare made in the text. :innocent:
No, Isaiah 53 is meant to have a meaning which it conveys quite clearly. It has nothing to do with sacrifice nor is it supposed to look like it does.
 

jaybird

Member
when John was in prison and asked Jesus "are you the one or should we expect another" some believe this might be John asking if there was a 2nd Christ coming. it syncs with the Essene theology of Qumran and most agree John was one of them or closely connected with their teachings.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I suppose i'm only supposed to see the hand in front of my face. But if you read the bible right Israel is symbolic of Christ. And the Prophets subtly talk about Christ throughout the OT.
Maybe you can explain something to me. The Old Testament has been around for thousands of years. Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament. Therefore Jews don’t understand their own scripture. How can a non-Jew believe in anything in Jewish scripture then, even the very concept of the Messiah? The very idea of a Messiah is a Jewish concept.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Wiki said there were different Jews recognizing different Messiahs so Jesus was not the only one. SO why choose Jesus?
“Why choose Jesus?”. I’m going to give you an extremely brief history on how the Roman Empire persuaded people to convert. “CONVERT OR DIE”. Seems pretty compelling to me. I just saved you months of studying the history how Christianity spread so far and rapidly in a short amount of time. You don’t have to thank me, that’s just the kind of guy I am.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Maybe you can explain something to me. The Old Testament has been around for thousands of years. Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament. Therefore Jews don’t understand their own scripture. How can a non-Jew believe in anything in Jewish scripture then, even the very concept of the Messiah? The very idea of a Messiah is a Jewish concept.

Believing that The Lord inspired the scripture, not the Jews. The subtle meanings, veiled in ambiguity, the ones we don't get until looking back in hindsight show that The Lord inspired the scriptures, not man. And those meanings are the ones the foretell Jesus. Over and over the Lord says "So they will know that I am the Lord" subtle meanings strung together over 1000's of years show that The Lord inspired it. Then when he came in the flesh you would know that He is the Lord.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Believing that The Lord inspired the scripture, not the Jews. The subtle meanings, veiled in ambiguity, the ones we don't get until looking back in hindsight show that The Lord inspired the scriptures, not man. And those meanings are the ones the foretell Jesus. Over and over the Lord says "So they will know that I am the Lord" subtle meanings strung together over 1000's of years show that The Lord inspired it. Then when he came in the flesh you would know that He is the Lord.
You saw this with your own eyes or were you told this?
 
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