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Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
What does John 14:19 say about Jesus but that the world would behold him No more.
Where is God's House according to 1 Kings 8:27 ____________-Isaiah 66:1
There is noneed to keep going back and forth like this. I say there is no scripture that uses the word HEAVEN and says anyone has or will go there. They may talk about paradise or Abraham's bosom or God's kingdom. But no verses says HEAVEN is for people. You can end the debate be giving one verse thar uses the word HEAVEN and says anyone has or will go there. I do not think you can. Remember it must say HEAVEN and say some went there or will go there.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I believe a person can ' perish ' as found at 2 Peter 3:9. ( the people of Noah's Day perished )
Perish means: 'destroyed' which is in harmony with Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, the wicked go 'out of existence ' because they are 'destroyed forever'. No more resurrection hope for them.
Please notice Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57 KJV says ' perpetual sleep ' .
Resurrection is for the righteous and unrighteous according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15 (wicked Not included)
The 'righteous and unrighteous' will be awakened from death's sleep on Resurrection Day.(Jesus' 1,000-yr.Day)

Yes the wicked will eventually perish.
Jeremiah 51 concerning Babylon just means that Babylon will be destroyed and Babylon and Babylonians will be no more.
The people of Babylon, small and great will however be resurrected when God resurrects everyone for the final judgement. (Rev 20:12)
This is the same for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who will be raised for judgement even if Jude 5-7 says:
5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all,d that Jesus,e having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe. f in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by* undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Just as Jesus awakened his 4-day dead friend from death's sleep in John chapter 11, so the dead will live again.
The righteous to keep on being righteous and the unrighteous to become righteous to gain everlasting life.
Because Adam's curse upon humanity will be gone the ones proving righteous come to gain everlasting life as a perfect human as Adam was originally created before his downfall.

People are resurrected for the judgement.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I wonder how one would answer the question found at Hebrews 1:5 _________________- Psalms 2:7
Who has the archangel's voice according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ____________ it's No tangled web.

Don't you realise that Hebrews chapter 1 is telling us that the Son is not an angel. Do you really think that when it is asked in Hebrews 1 ----"to which of the angels" that it is not a rhetorical question, the answer to which is "none".
If you think they are not rhetorical questions then it certainly is a web more tangled than I realised.
Psalm 2:7 is metaphorical and describes the King in Israel and his appointment to the throne.
In the NT it is used of Jesus and His resurrection when He was shown to be Lord (Acts 13:33) and is used of Jesus being appointed High Priest. (Heb 5:5)
1Thess 4:16 is when Yahweh comes to judge everyone. (Psalm 96:13 etc) He is the ruler of the angels (Archangel) and so has the voice of the archangel. He is God and so has the trumpet of God.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No it does not.

Genesis 3:19 indicates no such thing.

Neither does Psalms 146:3-4…. If it did, after the verse says “his spirit departs / goes out”, it would say “and the person goes with it.” But it doesn’t. It agrees with Genesis 3:19.
And Ecclesiastes 3:19-20..”they all have the same spirit / breath.”

Eccles 3:18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

When we look at Ecclesiastes we see that we shouldn't be just picking out sentences or phrases and saying they are the truth without looking at the context. If I did that I would say that "Everything is meaningless" is the truth.
Eccles 3:19 shows us what God brings humans to see. That we have the same fate as animals and we die just as animals do and rot away to dust. That our spirit is not immortal just as the spirit of an animal is not and nobody can tell if an animal's spirit goes down into the earth and our spirit goes upwards.
With faith in other parts of God's word we know that life is not meaningless and even though we die there is a resurrection and our spirit goes upwards and does not just go out like a candle.

The only difference, is that humans, alienated as we are through imperfection, have the hope of the resurrection. John 6:44.

So I guess really then, to you and many others, God was omitting a whole bunch of information to Adam.

To you also God omits a whole bunch of information for Adam.
Nothing about resurrection or what death is. Nothing definitive about a saviour. For Adam he is going back to the dust and that is it. That is the same as it is for JWs and even though JWs admit to the other information that Adam did not have they deny things about the spirit that we have from later revelation.

And I’m pretty sure that your version of Scripture that you use (since most do), says “hellfire” or fires of hell or similar.
Matthew 18:9
What are you gonna do with that?
You haven’t said one thing about hellfire.
Was that Adam’s destination? If so, that’s a big omission!!
Not explaining any life after death, would be an omission / lie!

I know Matt 18:9 has Gehenna and that Gehenna is a rubbish tip and burn off site. And yes God does not say anything about that. But I see all these things that God has not told Adam as not lies but just omissions for the time being. Those revelations came later to humanity. But you are determined to say that God was lying to Adam with all these omissions. I guess you don't really think God was lying with all those omissions, and more. You really do know about progressive revelation. Maybe you have heard that argument about God lying by omission from the WT. They have strange reasoning.


You want to believe in *immediate* life after death.

I’d like to think that way, too…. I don’t like knowing that my loved ones are not existing right now, that their bodies are the only thing left, and turning to dust…but I know the truth about death. It is the “enemy” (1 Corinthians 15:26), not the portal to another realm. (That’s ancient Greek philosophy, not truth.) My grandma and all the others are in the safest place: God’s memory. Through His Son, He will resurrect them, all who are in ‘Hades / Hell, the sea, and death.’ Revelation 20:13-14

It has nothing to do with what I want. The state of the dead is a bit of a mystery but we know from scriptures it is not annihilation. Death is an enemy. The first death is that of the body. The soul does not die then. It is as Matt 10:28 says. If someone kills our body they cannot kill our soul.
Unfortunately for the JWs, when someone kills our body in JW theology, they have actually killed our soul.
So you have a plain scripture that contradicts JW theology.
What does the WT do about that?
1) Take the eye off that part of the verse so that JWs don't really notice it and claim the verse is only speaking about whether a person has an immortal soul or not.
2) Make up a story (found nowhere in scripture) that the soul stays alive in the memory of God.
So who is making God a liar now?

Existence in hades it seems is not a very satisfactory existence and humans are not complete without a body. Nobody wants to spend eternity there. Resurrection and the final judgement is the only kind, just and merciful way to go.
2Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Our earthly tent is our mortal body. Our eternal home is our glorified body in which we are swallowed up by life.
Rev 6:9-11 speaks of the souls of slain saints under the altar.
Heb 12:22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23 in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
1Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in man,
the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
Numbers 16:22 And they fell on their faces and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and will you be angry with all the congregation?”
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We have a spirits that are more than just a life force. They are what lives in us and our bodies are our tent, our clothing.
Our spirits are what is born again now so that we can be children of God now. (John 3:6) Now it is our body which is carnal and at the resurrection we are adopted fully as children of God by receiving our immortal body. (Romans 8:23--which the WT has altered in the NWT)
God is the God of our spirits, the part that is alive. God cannot be God of dead material, our bodies. (Num 16:22)
etc. Do I need to explain each passage to you? I shouldn't but I guess the truth of them is hidden from you.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Listen my cousin, I’m not going to get drawn in on this topic, because this isn’t the thread.

But I’ll reply to this:


Yes, “through Him”, he was used by the Father as a “master craftsman”… Proverbs 8:30

(Just as it is “through Jesus” that Jehovah God - Jesus’ Father - saves mankind.)

Colossians 1:15-16
Revelation 3:14

He is more than a master craftsman if everything that has come into existence has come into existence through Him. (John 1:3, Col 1:15-16 etc) And yes I know you want Prov 8:22-30 to be saying that wisdom was created but a more accurate translations do not have that and anyway as I have said, if everything has been created through Him then He is not one of the things created)
Rev 3:14 tells us that Jesus is the ruler of God's creation. (not the beginning in time of the creation by God, but the ruler of the creation of God.)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hello, my brother; hope you’re well.


So, the wicked go 'out of existence ' because they are 'destroyed forever'. No more resurrection hope for them.
Please notice Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57 KJV says ' perpetual sleep ' .

Yes, “perpetual sleep” as in death.

Here’s an excerpt from a “Question From Readers” regarding Jeremiah 51:37…

“Does this mean that none of them will be resurrected so as to be included with “the dead, the great and the small,” whom the apostle John prophetically saw standing before the throne of judgment? (Rev. 20:12, 13) Apparently not. Belshazzar was the last of that line of kings. He was slain on the night Babylon fell and went into “an indefinitely lasting sleep” from which he has not awakened till now because he was not made drunk with wine, the effects of which can be slept off, but was killed, and so he is apparently included among those who are in Sheol. If that is true of him, it seems reasonable that it would be true of other Babylonians who perished at that time. How long their “indefinitely lasting sleep” will yet last before God’s power rouses them from death under the Messianic kingdom, we do not know. They cannot wake themselves up.—Compare Job 14:10-12, 19-22.”

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1965607?q=jeremiah+51:57&p=par

So glad that Jehovah’s the ultimate Judge, eh?!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
To you also God omits a whole bunch of information for Adam. Nothing about resurrection or what death is.
No, Jehovah was truthful. Only for you, agreeing with Christendom’s acceptance of Greek pagan philosophy, does there seem to be omissions.

But I see all these things that God has not told Adam as not lies but just omissions for the time being.

“For the time being”? It was his future at stake. Quite an important omission to Adam, wouldn’t you say? So now he’s…what? “burning”?
Or do you no longer amenable to that part of Mainstream Christendom’s dogma? I bet you used to, didn’t you?

Do I need to explain each passage to you? I shouldn't but I guess the truth of them is hidden from you.
:rolleyes:
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes the wicked will eventually perish.
Jeremiah 51 concerning Babylon just means that Babylon will be destroyed and Babylon and Babylonians will be no more.
The people of Babylon, small and great will however be resurrected when God resurrects everyone for the final judgement. (Rev 20:12)
This is the same for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who will be raised for judgement even if Jude 5-7 says:
5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all,d that Jesus,e having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe. f in the same way as these, are exhibited as an example by* undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
People are resurrected for the judgement.

Just as the lake of fire is symbolic of ' second death ' Rev. 20:13-14 so elsewhere in Scripture 'fire' can be symbolic of destruction.
Destruction forever is for the wicked -> Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
The choice is 'repent or perish' and Not repent or burn forever - 2 Peter 3:9
Sodom and Gomorrah were 'destroyed' by fire - 2 Thessalonians 1:9 = ' everlasting destruction '

People are resurrected for the judgement on what they do AFTER they are resurrected - Acts of the apostles 24:15
Please notice there is No mention of the wicked at Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Remember: the majority of mankind lived and died without having the opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
They can have either a 'favorable judgement or adverse judgement' AFTER they are resurrected as they show themselves to be 'righteous or wicked' on what they do AFTER they are resurrected.
After the thousand years only righteous people will be on Earth because of receiving a favorable judgement.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, Jehovah was truthful. Only for you, agreeing with Christendom’s acceptance of Greek pagan philosophy, does there seem to be omissions.

For JWs it seems, Genesis tells all there is to know about death and what a human is. Thinking like that is why JWs deny what God has told us later in the scriptures.

“For the time being”? It was his future at stake. Quite an important omission to Adam, wouldn’t you say? So now he’s…what? “burning”?
Or do you no longer amenable to that part of Mainstream Christendom’s dogma? I bet you used to, didn’t you?

Now he is in sheol/hades I imagine. If you think that dying and going to hades was Adam's future, OK, but knowing what the death of the body really entailed would not change anything for Adam, just as knowing details about the future Christ would not change anything.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Just as the lake of fire is symbolic of ' second death ' Rev. 20:13-14 so elsewhere in Scripture 'fire' can be symbolic of destruction.
Destruction forever is for the wicked -> Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
The choice is 'repent or perish' and Not repent or burn forever - 2 Peter 3:9

Those who go to the lake of fire also suffer torment.
Rev 14:11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Sodom and Gomorrah were 'destroyed' by fire - 2 Thessalonians 1:9 = ' everlasting destruction '

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be raised for judgement.
Matt 10:15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

God judges whole nations but that is not the final judgement unless you think that God condemns the innocent (babies etc) because of where they live.

People are resurrected for the judgement on what they do AFTER they are resurrected - Acts of the apostles 24:15
Please notice there is No mention of the wicked at Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Yes the wicked will be resurrected.
John 5:28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Remember: the majority of mankind lived and died without having the opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
They can have either a 'favorable judgement or adverse judgement' AFTER they are resurrected as they show themselves to be 'righteous or wicked' on what they do AFTER they are resurrected.
After the thousand years only righteous people will be on Earth because of receiving a favorable judgement.

The scriptures tell us that after the 1000 years the rest of the dead will be resurrected, those not in the first resurrection.
JWs have to say that people will be judged on what they do after the resurrection, but where does the scripture tell us that? Nowhere. (please tell me if you know where) It is made up by the Watch Tower because it does not believe that the first death is only the death of the body and the second death is the destruction of both body and soul (Matt 10:28) This is because the Watch Tower does not know what a human is and does not know what death is.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
JWs have to say that people will be judged on what they do after the resurrection, but where does the scripture tell us that? Nowhere. (please tell me if you know where)

What we say, is always supported by Scripture… in this case, Romans 6:7, “For he that has died, has been acquitted / has been freed from his sin.”

What do you think that means? Obviously, one who has been acquitted, or freed, doesn’t have to pay anymore…they’ve “paid” the price. See Romans 6:23

Besides, resurrecting someone just to kill them again (due to their errors), really makes no sense.

…death of the body….

…is the death of the person.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, “the dead know nothing”

That is the person.

Please read the first part…”The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

“The living”, who is that? Well, who ‘knows’ things, a person or a body? That’s the person, who ‘knows’.

The text is contrasting a living person with a dead person.



Your explanations are equating God’s statements of death to Adam, as glaring omissions : a form of lying.

If you don’t see that, then you don’t want to.

So be it. I’m done with this topic.

Best wishes, my cousin.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What we say, is always supported by Scripture… in this case, Romans 6:7, “For he that has died, has been acquitted / has been freed from his sin.”

What do you think that means? Obviously, one who has been acquitted, or freed, doesn’t have to pay anymore…they’ve “paid” the price. See Romans 6:23

Romans 6:7 in context is speaking about Christians physically having died with Jesus and so freed from the power that sin had in their lives, because their carnal body is dead and we are raised to the newness of Jesus resurrection life, where sin has no power over a person.
If someone pays the penalty for their sins (in this case by dying), that is not being acquitted. Romans 6:7 does not support the idea that a person has gone through the complete judgement once they have physically died.
The Watch Tower has played a trick that it sometimes does and used a translation that may be literally acceptable but is not accurate to the context.
The justification is that a couple of other translations use a similar translation.
Romans 6:7 For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Besides, resurrecting someone just to kill them again (due to their errors), really makes no sense.

It makes sense when we know that someone who is physically dead is spiritually in hades and the judgement needs to be completed so that they can be judged as worthy for the Kingdom of God or not. In Hades nothing is resolved and hades is not eternal life and is not eternal death it seems, it is just a waiting place, albeit a place of comfort for some and discomfort for others.
What really makes no sense is Revelation telling us that the dead, small and great will be resurrected, and Jesus saying that all in the graves will hear His voice and be resurrected,(John 5:28) BUT the Watch Tower denying what the Bible says and saying not everyone will be resurrected because resurrecting someone just to kill them again makes no sense. That makes no sense for a religion that says it teaches the Bible.

…is the death of the person.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, “the dead know nothing”

That is the person.

Please read the first part…”The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.”

“The living”, who is that? Well, who ‘knows’ things, a person or a body? That’s the person, who ‘knows’.

The text is contrasting a living person with a dead person.

Eccles 9:1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God’s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.
As it is with the good,
so with the sinful;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Hades is a places of waiting where we don't know what is going on (on earth) and we don't work and achieve anything. Make this life count, here is where we can do things.
That the "dead know nothing" is not saying that the dead go our of existence, it is a comment on the state of the dead, the state of the existing dead.

Your explanations are equating God’s statements of death to Adam, as glaring omissions : a form of lying.

If you don’t see that, then you don’t want to.

So be it. I’m done with this topic.

Best wishes, my cousin.

You say that God's gradual revelation over the years is lying by omission, not me.
No doubt because God said nothing to Adam about the resurrection and final judgement of people, and entrance or not into the eternal Kingdom of God, that is an omission and important for Adam and so is lying by omission.
But no, to you that is not lying by omission.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
IMO you and no doubt the Watch Tower are being dishonest in that argument.
The teaching of the JWs is that the "spirit" is a life force only and contains nothing of the dead person.
You have made your argument sound like the teachings of regular Christianity as if you teach that the spirit carries the essence of the person which can be returned to a body at the resurrection.
Either the dead still exist and sleep in death OR the dead do not sleep but go out of existence at the death of the body. The Watch Tower teaching is the 2nd.
Which on do you believe.
But maybe you think that the dead can both sleep and go out of existence. Is that what you believe?

I believe I will be allowed to go on to my next life (It is His judgment of course) since I did Heaven when I needed it and at present would rather minister on earth.
 
I believe that preservation is something which happens with a encouraged and deeply profound spirit. If we stop working out we lose our gains. If we stop eating we lose physical function. Evil works are only combated with a good conscience and being attentive to the spirit. Connection to God is like a phone call, if we lose connection or hang up. Thats it. Until we decide to make things right but making a call again.
 
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