Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

[Frank Goad]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

 

[Kenny]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

Actually there are more:

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

The Bible is repeatedly inconsistent on what happens to people in the afterlife, Frank, as I showed you in my previous replies when you inquired about specific scriptures that illustrate the afterlife in your other threads (see here as an example). I've demonstrated time and time again how the Bible has conflicting verses about the afterlife. And instead of rehashing everything I've already said, I'm re-posting my reply from your thread about people believing that spirits were underground when they died. But before I re-post that reply, I'd like to reiterate its last paragraph and ask you to tell me your thoughts on the questions I asked you then. It is as follows:

As I've demonstrated with the multiple scriptures I quoted, Frank, the Bible isn't exactly clear on what happens in the afterlife. Do human spirits ascend from the ground, as the verses you cited imply, or do some human spirits ascend from the sea and Hades and then face judgment, or do all human spirits face judgment immediately after death and all believers in Christ are immediately in his presence after death, or do human spirits (believers and unbelievers) fall asleep in the grave to be resurrected later in the end times?

Now, here is the rest of what I wrote in my other post (click here).

The scriptures you cited support my opinion that the Bible's depiction of the afterlife contradicts itself. For instance, Hebrews 9:27 implies that a person faces judgment immediately after death, and 1 Corinthians 5:8 implies that a Christian who dies is instantly in the presence of the Lord. However, Revelation 20:13 conflicts with Hebrews 9:27 by stating that "the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them," and "each individual was judged according to what they had done."

Furthermore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 conflicts with 1 Corinthians 5:8 because it says, "13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Moreover, Matthew 27:51-53 implies soul sleep for believers. It says, "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

Daniel 12:2 implies soul sleep for both believers and unbelievers, which conflicts with Hebrews 9:27 and 1 Corinthians 5:8. It states, "And many of those who slumber in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt." 2 Chronicles 32:33 also implies soul sleep: "And Hezekiah slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the upper part of the tombs of the sons of David; and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honor at his death." And Manasseh, his son, reigned in his place. " There are other similar verses: 2 Chronicles 33:20; 1 Kings 15:8; 1 Kings 16:28; 2 Kings 13:13; and 2 Kings 14:29.

And John 11:11-15 implies soul sleep as well. It states, "After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I will go to awaken him." The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant to take rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus has died, and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe." But let us go to him. " Notice that Jesus did not say that Lazarus' spirit went directly to heaven after death and was in His presence or that Lazarus' spirit faced judgment immediately after death or that his spirit came up from under the ground. He said that Lazarus had fallen asleep and that he would go wake up Lazarus, but Lazarus was dead.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually there are more:

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

But those are parables and metaphors, they didn't actually mean it!

 

[Brickjectivity]

Scripture is going to allow you to view it that way but also other ways. It has multiple interpretations. For example I can quote "...for you were dead in your sins..." and in a nutshell show that there is a flaw in your interpretation. But you can quote something to show a flaw in my interpretation, too. Think of the scripture as poetic rather than as prose. The words point to multiple meanings. Choose your own adventure. View it more than one way! Look at it two or three ways.

You have a mind, and so it is your responsibility. Nobody else is responsible to make you know what is true. What I don't recommend is using scripture like its a textbook telling you one thing only. It doesn't do that and isn't intended for that purpose.

 

[Kenny]

But those are parables and metaphors, they didn't actually mean it!

It is interesting that it is always says "parable" when talking about parables but in these he doesn't.

Could it be we are misinterpreting them by calling them a parable?

 

[paarsurrey]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

" 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11"
Kindly don't remain under any illusion and wishful thinking, please. Right?
The above verses " 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11" have not been colored in red in the following Red Letter Bibles:

Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)
The Roman Catholic Holy Bible with the words of Jesus in red.
World Messianic Bible

and that means neither (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, spoke them nor authored them nor wrote them and , therefore, these are not a reliable source for guidance in ethical, moral and or spiritual matters and to rely on them is against the teachings of Yeshua, it transpires. Right?
The Christians who get mislead because of such verses may suffer in the hereafter , then they are not to accuse Yeshua for such suffering, one gathers, please. Right?

Regards

 

[blü 2]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

Hmm.

Neither of those says WHEN you'll get there.

And the bible thinks you have to wait till THE resurrection ─ Paul, each gospel, and Acts, think that's the case ─ at least on these occasions:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

Mark 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven?

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

 

[Brian2]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

I do not see it with those 2 scriptures but see it with others. But remember, the people spoken to are Christians and so this applies to them only. It is different with others.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Frank why do you keep PMing me with this same subject? You know my position, and the Scriptures I use to support it….

Death was / is the penalty for sin (Genesis 3:19; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23). It’s never been a ‘gateway to another realm.’ The promised Resurrection for mankind will restore life, but it hasn’t happened yet….


“The living are conscious that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all…” — Ecclesiastes 9:5. Cf. Psalms 146:3-4

People who have died are just like the animals who’ve died. — Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Jesus himself likened death to a “sleep”. (John 11:11-14; Did Lazarus say he had been somewhere else?)

Paul implied the dead are “asleep”. More than once.— (1 Corinthians 15:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) @Sgt. Pepper posted these and others. I appreciate that, but I don’t agree with the assessment that the Bible contradicts itself. Much is just misapplied. Such as 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which many think discusses a rapture… actually Paul was discussing the Resurrection, as is seen in vss13,14,&16. (“Still alive” in vs17 means living “when he comes”, actually during the time of Christ’s “presence”, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.
Notice that vs22 says “all will be made alive.” They are not alive immediately, or automatically.

Actually, take note, teaching that the dead are ‘alive somewhere else,’ is saying “the resurrection has already occurred,” which is ‘straying from the truth.’ (1 Timothy 2:18) And how many religions teach such a doctrine? But they’ve “strayed from the truth.”
It’s to be expected though, since according to 1 John 5:19 this “whole world” is under the Devil’s control.

He wants people to believe inaccuracies… that is why we have warnings in the Bible, of what to avoid. One way the Devil misleads, is not just by teachings, but by actively taking a role and getting his angels to imposter the dead, like the case with King Saul in 1 Samuel 28.

(Vs19 states that “Samuel” said to Sail that ‘tomorrow you will be with me.’ Why would wicked King Saul be with righteous Samuel? If the dead are living, wouldn’t Saul ‘go to torment’, while Samuel would be ‘in heaven’?)

Let’s reason on this incident…. while living, Samuel refused to have any contact w Saul. Why would he do so now? And through a witch, someone acting in ways God’s Word condemned?! (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The truth is, he wouldn’t have!
When he’s resurrected, he’ll find this out, discovering that his person was impostered by wicked spirits! He won’t be happy with that!

You might say, “Well, if it was the demons - or a demon - why doesn’t the account tell us? You could ask the same thing about the events in Exodus 7…nowhere does it tell us that Satan was the power behind the magic priests’ staffs turning into snakes. But all we need to know, is how Jehovah feels towards magic & inquiring of the dead, such a hefty penalty! Death!

The Scripture bear out that there’s genuine power behind these activities— that’s why the Scriptures (the Bible) are so heavily under attack in this corrupt world… according to 2 Corinthians 4:4, this system is temporarily the Devil’s.

IMO, It will be gone soon.

Sorry for waxing rhapsodic, but I get carried away at times!

Best wishes to you and yours.

 

[stvdv]

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?

Nice passages...context too

Do you agree?

Yes, yes, yes

 

[Brian2]

Hmm.

Neither of those says WHEN you'll get there.

And the bible thinks you have to wait till THE resurrection ─ Paul, each gospel, and Acts, think that's the case ─ at least on these occasions:

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.

This is speaking about the resurrection of the body. We, our spiritual soul, can go to heaven before that.

Mark 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven?

Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Similarly with these passages, they speak about the resurrection and not about where our soul goes after death.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hmm.

Neither of those says WHEN you'll get there.

That’s a good point. @Frank Goad , please note.

And in passages where it may seem to indicate an immediate assent… we are always, immediately, in Jehovah’s care, whether we’re aware of it or not. Ezekiel 18 4,20 indicate when the soul dies — and yes, it does die — it still ‘belongs’ to Jehovah God. “All souls,” it says. So even those who don’t “believe” … their future life prospects as a soul - a living person - rests with Him. He realizes the misleading influences that have prevailed - and still do - on the Earth.

When one ponders the impact of what Romans 6:7 says,’death sets free from sin’, & Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death,” ( or as the NET Bible words it, “the payoff of sin is death”) you can see why the Judgment the Bible speaks of, comes after their future Resurrection (because their previous sins were “paid” for by their death); it’s about how they will act after learning the truth about Jehovah God. It won’t be blamed on “I didn’t know!”

Because then, all misleading influences will be gone! All will know.
IMO

 

[Kenny]

" 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11"
Kindly don't remain under any illusion and wishful thinking, please. Right?
The above verses " 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11" have not been colored in red in the following Red Letter Bibles:

Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)
The Roman Catholic Holy Bible with the words of Jesus in red.
World Messianic Bible

and that means neither (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, spoke them nor authored them nor wrote them and , therefore, these are not a reliable source for guidance in ethical, moral and or spiritual matters and to rely on them is against the teachings of Yeshua, it transpires. Right?
The Christians who get mislead because of such verses may suffer in the hereafter , then they are not to accuse Yeshua for such suffering, one gathers, please. Right?

Regards

I wouldn't necessarily say so. The whole of the TaNaKh is not written in red but still inspired by God through the prophets.

Couldn't He also do it through Apostles and others?

 

[blü 2]

This is speaking about the resurrection of the body. We, our spiritual soul, can go to heaven before that.

That, of course, is an idea from Greek theology, which sort of seeped into Jewish theology in the wake of Alexander's conquests c. 330 BCE. Plato's influential >Myth of Er< said the soul would be judged and sent to a bad place, or be reborn on earth to try again, or sent to a good good place. I guess one could use parts of John to back the soul idea, though I recall a book from many years ago which said that the idea of the soul didn't effectively displace the resurrection idea until the second millennium, not least because the nobility had come to dislike the idea of their ancestors being kept waiting ─ I don't know how well historians regard such interpretations 2022.

 

[blü 2]

That’s a good point. @Frank Goad , please note.

And in passages where it may seem to indicate an immediate assent… we are always, immediately, in Jehovah’s care, whether we’re aware of it or not. Ezekiel 18 4,20 indicate when the soul dies — and yes, it does die — it still ‘belongs’ to Jehovah God. “All souls,” it says. So even those who don’t “believe” … their future life prospects as a soul - a living person - rests with Him. He realizes the misleading influences that have prevailed - and still do - on the Earth.

When one ponders the impact of what Romans 6:7 says,’death sets free from sin’, & Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death,” ( or as the NET Bible words it, “the payoff of sin is death”) you can see why the Judgment the Bible speaks of, comes after their future Resurrection (because their previous sins were “paid” for by their death); it’s about how they will act after learning the truth about Jehovah God. It won’t be blamed on “I didn’t know!”

Because then, all misleading influences will be gone! All will know.
IMO

Paul, and the author of John, and the author of 1 John, think the natural end for those who don't believe in Jesus is extinction eg Romans 6:9, John 3:16.

But I think the fairest thing to say about any of them, let alone all of them together, is that the picture they paint of the postmortal state is at best ambiguous.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus himself likened death to a “sleep”. (John 11:11-14; Did Lazarus say he had been somewhere else?)

Paul implied the dead are “asleep”. More than once.— (1 Corinthians 15:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) @Sgt. Pepper posted these and others. I appreciate that, but I don’t agree with the assessment that the Bible contradicts itself.

The JW teaching on death is that the dead go out of existence but someone who is asleep is actually still alive and can be conscious for at least part of the time.
The Ecclesiastes and Psalms teaching on death is that the dead know nothing about what happens on the earth and that the dead go to that place (iow they still exist in that place).

Actually, take note, teaching that the dead are ‘alive somewhere else,’ is saying “the resurrection has already occurred,” which is ‘straying from the truth.’ (1 Timothy 2:18) And how many religions teach such a doctrine? But they’ve “strayed from the truth.”

Teaching that the dead are alive somewhere else is not saying that the resurrection has already occurred.
The resurrection is when the soul is raised with a body.

He wants people to believe inaccuracies… that is why we have warnings in the Bible, of what to avoid. One way the Devil misleads, is not just by teachings, but by actively taking a role and getting his angels to imposter the dead, like the case with King Saul in 1 Samuel 28.

If the Devil did that then the Devil also must have inspired the writers of that story to tell us that this demon (the Devil's angel) was Samuel and to avoid saying it was a demon.

(Vs19 states that “Samuel” said to Sail that ‘tomorrow you will be with me.’ Why would wicked King Saul be with righteous Samuel? If the dead are living, wouldn’t Saul ‘go to torment’, while Samuel would be ‘in heaven’?)

You are misrepresenting the teachings of regular Christianity, and you should know better. No wonder there is confusion around about these things.
Up until now the souls of the dead go to sheol/hades in the Greek. This place is a place of comfort and rest for some and unrest for others.
When Jesus rose from the dead He freed many in hades and those in Christ who died after that go to be with Jesus according to the teaching of Paul.
This is really quite simple and you should learn it so that you do not misrepresent in the future.

Let’s reason on this incident…. while living, Samuel refused to have any contact w Saul. Why would he do so now? And through a witch, someone acting in ways God’s Word condemned?! (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The truth is, he wouldn’t have!
When he’s resurrected, he’ll find this out, discovering that his person was impostered by wicked spirits! He won’t be happy with that!

You should not be explaining away God's word. God's word in that story is that Samuel came up and spoke to Saul.
Thank God for His word and listen to it instead of to the reasonings of men who deny that word.

You might say, “Well, if it was the demons - or a demon - why doesn’t the account tell us? You could ask the same thing about the events in Exodus 7…nowhere does it tell us that Satan was the power behind the magic priests’ staffs turning into snakes. But all we need to know, is how Jehovah feels towards magic & inquiring of the dead, such a hefty penalty! Death!

It is plain that the priests and magicians of the gods of Egypt were not using the power of Yahweh.
Instead of asking "why doesn't the account tell us?" maybe the question should be "why does the account tell us who came up from the grave?"
God can use anyone for His purposes, even a witch, and Saul, going to a witch, would be just as guilty whether God was using the witch or not.
I will give you this, it is possible that a reason God prophesied Saul's death (accurately) through Samuel is that Saul came to enquire of a witch.

 

[Brian2]

That, of course, is an idea from Greek theology, which sort of seeped into Jewish theology in the wake of Alexander's conquests c. 330 BCE. Plato's influential >Myth of Er< said the soul would be judged and sent to a bad place, or be reborn on earth to try again, or sent to a good good place. I guess one could use parts of John to back the soul idea, though I recall a book from many years ago which said that the idea of the soul didn't effectively displace the resurrection idea until the second millennium, not least because the nobility had come to dislike the idea of their ancestors being kept waiting ─ I don't know how well historians regard such interpretations 2022.

Going to sheol/hades and being resurrected are different things that we can see in the OT scriptures before the Greek influence, and they continued on in the NT teachings and in a clearer way.

 

[blü 2]

Going to sheol/hades and being resurrected are different things that we can see in the OT scriptures before the Greek influence

Yes. In the Tanakh, we have three resurrections,

* Elijah raising the Zarephath woman’s son (1 Kings 17:17+),
* Elisha raising the Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:32+), and
* The resurrection of the man whose dead body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 4:32+).

The form in which the Endor lady conjured Samuel up to speak with Saul (1 Samuel 28:13-19) is less clear; he sees nothing, she says she sees an old man in a robe. That suggests something in the ghost / spirit / soul category.

they continued on in the NT teachings and in a clearer way.

I think the NT doesn't present a single view of the hereafter, but indeed talks of the resurrection of the faithful dead, and in places the extinction of the rest, rather as in Ecclesiastes. But what is it you cast when you cast some dead and offensive person into eg the lake of fire?

 

[RabbiO]

I wouldn't necessarily say so. The whole of the TaNaKh is not written in red but still inspired by God through the prophets.

Couldn't He also do it through Apostles and others?

You’ve been on the forum long enough to know that the member to whom you responded is not only dismissive of Christian scripture, but also believes that theTanakh has been corrupted.