Two Preachers in Indonesia Charged with Blasphemy

[danieldemol]

'Muslim and Christian Preachers Face Prison Under Abusive Law

Indonesian National Police have separately arrested and detained two clergymen on blasphemy charges.

On August 25 Muhammad Kece, a Christian preacher, was arrested at his friend’s house in Bali for alleged blasphemy against Islam. Among other allegations, the authorities charged him with changing the word “Allah” in the Islamic oath to “Jesus.” He has been detained in a Jakarta detention center.

A day later, Yahya Waloni, a Muslim imam, was arrested at his house in Jakarta after allegedly saying in a sermon that the Bible was fake. Waloni is being held in a hospital in Jakarta.'

Source: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/09/09/two-preachers-indonesia-charged-blasphemy

Can you imagine the amount of scholarship that would be lost in the west if we had that sort of attitude towards blasphemy?

In my opinion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, at least they're treating Christians and Muslims the same in this instance. For a majority Muslim nation, that's pretty good there. Lol.

 

[Viker]

I can appreciate the equality. The harsh penalties for blasphemy, not much.

 

[Glaurung]

Well, at least they're treating Christians and Muslims the same in this instance. For a majority Muslim nation, that's pretty good there. Lol.

If I recall correctly, Christianity is an officially recognized religion in Indonesia so in theory it enjoys the same legal backing as Islam does. By arresting the Muslim cleric they're actually maintaining their stated idea of secularism.

 

[mangalavara]

Can you imagine the amount of scholarship that would be lost in the west if we had that sort of attitude towards blasphemy?

I find your post blasphemous. I'm calling the police to arrest you in your house.

 

[Aštra’el]

These blasphemers broke the law, and they will now suffer the consequences of their own decisions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

'Muslim and Christian Preachers Face Prison Under Abusive Law

Indonesian National Police have separately arrested and detained two clergymen on blasphemy charges.

On August 25 Muhammad Kece, a Christian preacher, was arrested at his friend’s house in Bali for alleged blasphemy against Islam. Among other allegations, the authorities charged him with changing the word “Allah” in the Islamic oath to “Jesus.” He has been detained in a Jakarta detention center.

A day later, Yahya Waloni, a Muslim imam, was arrested at his house in Jakarta after allegedly saying in a sermon that the Bible was fake. Waloni is being held in a hospital in Jakarta.'

Source: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/09/09/two-preachers-indonesia-charged-blasphemy

Can you imagine the amount of scholarship that would be lost in the west if we had that sort of attitude towards blasphemy?

In my opinion.

There is another dimension to this news story that would not be obvious to non-Indonesians. I lived in Indonesia for seven years and with large numbers of Muslims and Christians living together, I am aware of the violence that can and does flare up between the two, so to keep the harmony and prevent violence between followers, the government has to be seen to be above taking sides. It is to set an example of anyone from either religion to refrain from stirring up the other side.

 

[danieldemol]

There is another dimension to this news story that would not be obvious to non-Indonesians. I lived in Indonesia for seven years and with large numbers of Muslims and Christians living together, I am aware of the violence that can and does flare up between the two, so to keep the harmony and prevent violence between followers, the government has to be seen to be above taking sides. It is to set an example of anyone from either religion to refrain from stirring up the other side.

They could be seen not to take sides by simply not arresting anyone for blasphemy.

ETA They should be arresting those who feel the need to be violent at the slightest feeling of offence, they are the real criminals who need to be made an example of.

In my opinion.

 

[Brian2]

'Muslim and Christian Preachers Face Prison Under Abusive Law

Indonesian National Police have separately arrested and detained two clergymen on blasphemy charges.

On August 25 Muhammad Kece, a Christian preacher, was arrested at his friend’s house in Bali for alleged blasphemy against Islam. Among other allegations, the authorities charged him with changing the word “Allah” in the Islamic oath to “Jesus.” He has been detained in a Jakarta detention center.

A day later, Yahya Waloni, a Muslim imam, was arrested at his house in Jakarta after allegedly saying in a sermon that the Bible was fake. Waloni is being held in a hospital in Jakarta.'

Source: https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/09/09/two-preachers-indonesia-charged-blasphemy

Can you imagine the amount of scholarship that would be lost in the west if we had that sort of attitude towards blasphemy?

In my opinion.

Quote from your link with my emphasis:
>>>Indonesia’s blasphemy law punishes comments that are found to deviate from the central tenets of Indonesia’s six officially recognized religions – Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism – with up to six years in prison if the crime is published on the internet. It is regularly used for political purposes and largely against vulnerable groups.<<<

It looks like most of Indonesia could be arrested each week if the law was carried out fairly. A Christian can't even say "Jesus is great" without being arrested.
A Muslim can't even say that the Bible is fake, which it seems that it a belief of Islam about most of the Bible.
It's nice that they want to be seen as fair, at least for the main religions, but all it does is highlight the stupidity of the probably initial blasphemy law for those who blaspheme against Islam, the main religion.
But if there was no blasphemy law against Islam it might be hard to get elected in Indonesia and if there was no blasphemy law against Islam I'm sure there would be plenty of Muslims who would take matters into their own hands.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

These blasphemers broke the law, and they will now suffer the consequences of their own decisions.

Yeeeesh. Support all laws, do you?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

They could be seen not to take sides by simply not arresting anyone for blasphemy.

ETA They should be arresting those who feel the need to be violent at the slightest feeling of offence, they are the real criminals who need to be made an example of.

In my opinion.

Haha, you've never spent time in Indonesia. The very word 'amok' is derived from Bahasa Indonesia/Malayu, when the people get emotional, there is nothing the police can do without bringing out the riot squads with their batons and rifles to break up the riotous crowd. If rumor of blasphemy starts to spread, it is a choice of the police to either deal with the individual or a riotous crowd, the former is proven over time to be the quickest and least disruptive to society. So my word to you my friend, is if you ever go to Indonesia, be respectful to the religious beliefs of whoever it is you meet. Sure you may not like Islam, but don't say so publicly to Muslims, and the same goes for Christians.

If ever you want to see evidence of collective consciousness, there it is in Indonesia. Though it is also very evident in our own countries with football club followers, etc..

 

[danieldemol]

Haha, you've never spent time in Indonesia. The very word 'amok' is derived from Bahasa Indonesia/Malayu, when the people get emotional, there is nothing the police can do without bringing out the riot squads with their batons and rifles to break up the riotous crowd. If rumor of blasphemy starts to spread, it is a choice of the police to either deal with the individual or a riotous crowd, the former is proven over time to be the quickest and least disruptive to society. So my word to you my friend, is if you ever go to Indonesia, be respectful to the religious beliefs of whoever it is you meet. Sure you may not like Islam, but don't say so publicly to Muslims, and the same goes for Christians.

If ever you want to see evidence of collective consciousness, there it is in Indonesia. Though it is also very evident in our own countries with football club followers, etc..

It is short term thinking to say that dealing with the blasphemer is the least disruptive over time.

If people are regularly exposed to blasphemy from a young age they will become desensitised to it.

By further sensitising people to blasphemy you are only increasing the chance of a violent flare up the next time someone says something foundational to their beliefs such as "there is no God but Jesus" or "the bible is fake".

Furthermore, if Christians and Muslims can't discuss religion without being violent the power their religions wield should be abolished, and the only way to do that is to allow the religions to be challenged openly so that people may see through logical disagreements that the certainty with which they persecute each other is unjustified.

In my opinion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is short term thinking to say that dealing with the blasphemer is the least disruptive over time.

If people are regularly exposed to blasphemy from a young age they will become desensitised to it.

By further sensitising people to blasphemy you are only increasing the chance of a violent flare up the next time someone says something foundational to their beliefs such as "there is no God but Jesus" or "the bible is fake".

Furthermore, if Christians and Muslims can't discuss religion without being violent the power their religions wield should be abolished, and the only way to do that is to allow the religions to be challenged openly so that people may see through logical disagreements that the certainty with which they persecute each other is unjustified.

In my opinion.

Oh people can reasonably discuss religion without being violent, but not all members of society are reasonable, it may not surprise you to know that there are trouble makers who purposely try to create strife when the possibility arises, and religion can offer that possibility.

I would suppose it is like race in America, reasonable people can discuss race and their opinions of it without being violent, but when trouble makers get on the case, the streets get violent. Fancy that, some members of BLM may not be reasonable, or Antifa when it comes to discussing politics reasonably.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Quote from your link with my emphasis:
>>>Indonesia’s blasphemy law punishes comments that are found to deviate from the central tenets of Indonesia’s six officially recognized religions – Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism – with up to six years in prison if the crime is published on the internet. It is regularly used for political purposes and largely against vulnerable groups.<<<

It looks like most of Indonesia could be arrested each week if the law was carried out fairly. A Christian can't even say "Jesus is great" without being arrested.
A Muslim can't even say that the Bible is fake, which it seems that it a belief of Islam about most of the Bible.
It's nice that they want to be seen as fair, at least for the main religions, but all it does is highlight the stupidity of the probably initial blasphemy law for those who blaspheme against Islam, the main religion.
But if there was no blasphemy law against Islam it might be hard to get elected in Indonesia and if there was no blasphemy law against Islam I'm sure there would be plenty of Muslims who would take matters into their own hands.

.There is no way an ordinary believer of any religion who disparages another religion will face legal issues, but if the Archbishop or head Imam does it, they face charges. It is about keeping the peace. Most people in Indonesia are not fanatical when it comes to religion, and in America I would suppose most white people are not fanatically racist, but if say the Mayor of New York claimed that all black people are genetically morons, they may start riots and the police would have to step in. Better to have the leaders of the white and black communities button their lips, but on the streets, people will be people.

 

[Glaurung]

Furthermore, if Christians and Muslims can't discuss religion without being violent the power their religions wield should be abolished, and the only way to do that is to allow the religions to be challenged openly so that people may see through logical disagreements that the certainty with which they persecute each other is unjustified.

You can't force secular humanism down a population's throat. You can't wave a wand and break the power religion has on a population deeply informed by it. Frankly, that Indonesia has maintained its moderate regime is an achievement. Perhaps as time goes on they'll adopt more westernized attitudes in regards to blasphemy but such a change comes from the bottom up rather than the top down.

Any competent authority seeks to keep conflict to a minimum. Even if that means that people who stir the pot face legal consequences for things westerners would not consider criminal. You may not like the fact that Indonesia is a religiously conservative country, but your feelings on the matter will not change it. Indonesia is no Pakistan but it is no New Zealand either.

 

[Debater Slayer]

These blasphemers broke the law, and they will now suffer the consequences of their own decisions.

It's hard to take a post seriously when it seems like it's merely intended to be contrarian or edgy/attention-seeking for the sake of being so.

 

[danieldemol]

Oh people can reasonably discuss religion without being violent, but not all members of society are reasonable, it may not surprise you to know that there are trouble makers who purposely try to create strife when the possibility arises, and religion can offer that possibility.

I would suppose it is like race in America, reasonable people can discuss race and their opinions of it without being violent, but when trouble makers get on the case, the streets get violent. Fancy that, some members of BLM may not be reasonable, or Antifa when it comes to discussing politics reasonably.

Jails and the like are appropriate places for those who advocate violence.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

You can't force secular humanism down a population's throat. You can't wave a wand and break the power religion has on a population deeply informed by it. Frankly, that Indonesia has maintained its moderate regime is an achievement. Perhaps as time goes on they'll adopt more westernized attitudes in regards to blasphemy but such a change comes from the bottom up rather than the top down.

Any competent authority seeks to keep conflict to a minimum. Even if that means that people who stir the pot face legal consequences for things westerners would not consider criminal. You may not like the fact that Indonesia is a religiously conservative country, but your feelings on the matter will not change it. Indonesia is no Pakistan but it is no New Zealand either.

You can't force secular humanism down a populations throat, but that is no reason for free western folk not to challenge religion openly, nor is it a reason to force even more religion down Indonesias throat by the government there.

Arresting those who advocate violence against blasphemers would make for a good start, even if it may be necessary to place blasphemers in protective custody for the time being until the excess powers these religious thugs known as clergy enjoy can be watered down.

In the meantime I see it as the responsibility of every moral free person to challenge the religious power structures of Asia openly on the internet from the safety of western countries like Australia so that through reasoned disagreement the power these immoral clerics wield can be layed to rest.

In my opinion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Jails and the like are appropriate places for those who advocate violence.

In my opinion.

Yes, but in any event Christians have been advised that it is correct to obey the secular laws of the land you happen to be in, regardless of personal opinion. Romans 13:2-4 In this case, even though the matter is about religious blasphemy, I would suppose this is considered a secular law.

 

[Brian2]

.There is no way an ordinary believer of any religion who disparages another religion will face legal issues, but if the Archbishop or head Imam does it, they face charges. It is about keeping the peace. Most people in Indonesia are not fanatical when it comes to religion, and in America I would suppose most white people are not fanatically racist, but if say the Mayor of New York claimed that all black people are genetically morons, they may start riots and the police would have to step in. Better to have the leaders of the white and black communities button their lips, but on the streets, people will be people.

I know there is some fanaticism in Indonesia but yes as you say it is probably not that much and on the streets people will be people.
But of course with laws like that some people will take advantage if the dislike someone else or what that person said.