Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[We Never Know]

Hell is not a geographical location, it is a state of the soul that is far from God and/or a soul who has done serious evil.

If you really want to know what "I believe" hell might be like, I can send you an apt description written by a medium who communicated with a soul who had died and looked into hell, but I warn you it is more frightening than any Bible description.

No thanks. I'm good
Some believe hell is our current state here on earth. Heaven is dying and escaping it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Some believe hell is our current state here on earth. Heaven is dying and escaping it.

Count me in as one of those people.

 

[Deeje]

Oddly enough even as a former Christian, I enjoyed your post. I'm sure many Christians in here will have issues with the annihilation in the lake of fire part, especially where it says "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night" So we know there's night and day in the lake of fire at least, that will please people with seasonal affective disorder.

You will notice that it is "the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever" not the torment itself that lasts forever.....have you ever seen the aftermath of a forest fire where people's homes have been lost? What remains after everything is destroyed by the fire? The smoke continues to ascend for some time as a stark reminder of what took place. This is also what I believe is meant here. The fire is not literal and neither is the smoke. Since whatever goes into the lake of fire (gehenna) is destroyed, you have to be alive to suffer torment. The 'torment' that Jesus caused the religious leaders of his day was because of his teachings, whilst they were very much alive, but "dead" in their sins....he exposed them as the worst hypocrites ever! (Matthew ch 23) That is when "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" took place. That is why they wanted to silence him.

And not having your name written in the book of life gets you tossed in too. The presumption is that everybody who doesn't accept Jesus doesn't their name written in the book of life. That's 9/10's of everybody who has lived so I hope God made that lake real big.

Since it means eternal death, there is no backlog.....the ones who merit this end, just disappear from existence....that is what annihilation means. You are not alive somewhere....but taken out of existence completely. No one will remember that you ever lived. Very clean and tidy actually.

I've always had issues with the how can fire burn a spiritual body. I suppose God, being omnipotent and never running out of ideas for how to torment people, could make a spiritual fire to burn a spiritual body.

Can you tell me why God would be bothered to torment people forever? Hasn't he got better things to do? What makes you think that he would enjoy torturing people? In Israel's Law there was no punishment that involved torture or even confinement in a jail. When the apostate Israelites began sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech, God was appalled! Why then would he do that to his own children? (Jeremiah 7:31)

Only God can end the existence of spirit beings.....but the majority of humans never become spirit beings at death. Death is the cessation of life. There is no immortal soul to go anywhere but into their graves.....waiting for the promised resurrection. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4; John 5:28-29) The dead are not in a conscious state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Other theories are that the people tossed in the lake will have glorious risen bodies like Jesus', but these bodies will be able to be burned unceasingly, you know like the nerve endings never get destroyed, they just go on and on in writhing pain. But somehow according to Paul in 1 Timothy God will eventually save all men so the forever and ever part confuses the living hell out of me.

Talk about getting the story all wrong....

God will save the obedient ones.....those who "do the will of the Father"....(Matthew 7:21-23) It won't matter what you call yourself, or how well you practice your beliefs....its what you are at heart and whether you follow ALL the teachings of God's son (which he said came from his father anyway.)

We are caught up in a battle for the hearts and minds of mankind....Because we are free willed, God will never force us to obey him.....but he will show all of his creation that this is his earth and that he put us here to take care of it. He will not force our obedience, but as tenants here, we have rules to obey, and to respect and care for God's property. If we do not wish to live as the 'Landlord' requests, then expect an eviction notice.....its that simple IMO.

 

[firedragon]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

I am no Christian, but I can confidently say that these particular verses you have chosen are from two different books. First two from Matthew, while the second is from Titus.

The book of Matthew was probably written by one person, and if you read through the whole gospel, you would note that there two verses do not contradict, but contradistinct. Actually, it is even unfair to say they contra distinct, because one is just speaking of eternal fire, which could easily be the means of destroying "body and soul". These do not seem to be two different things, but the same exact thing.

And about God the saviour in Titus, it is a completely different writer, and I will refrain from giving any theological basis's.

Maybe since I am no Christian you can dismiss this if you wish.

Peace.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The way I read matthew 25 41-46 is that only those who don't feed the hungry, and clothe the naked and visit criminals in prison will go into fire and torment eternally. Nothing in there about going to eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.

So which of the 3 do you believe?

Surely, you don’t think all those who are hungry or naked or are prisoners, that Christ would call them, his brothers? Many hungry / naked people / those in prison today, are “goat”-like, certainly not following / obedient to Jesus, are they?

Actually, Jesus was talking specifically about his “brethren”... his brothers. (Jesus says that “sheep”-like ones — those obedient to / following Christ — are found doing good things to his brothers. But, these sheeplike ones are not called his brothers.)

Consider what Paul says about these ‘brothers of Christ’ :
Hebrews 2:11
Romans 8:17

I’m sorry but I’ve got a lot going on right now. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask @Deeje , @tigger2 , @Eyes to See , @URAVIP2ME , @nPeace , or @Misty Woods to explain differences between those called ‘brothers of Christ’, and the sheep, of Matthew 25.

(We all “speak in agreement” on spiritual matters.)

And to answer your question...
To us (me & those I mentioned above), there are only two outcomes for everyone who ever lived: everlasting life, or everlasting death (ie., permanent destruction). No torment...ever.

The Greek word translated ‘torment’ in English, carries the thought of ‘being jailed’....in these instances, being held for all time by the chains of death.

Take care.

 

[thomas t]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

Hi SAT,
thank you for sharing your questions.
No. 2, in my opinion, doesn't exist.
There is nothing that God destroys that he couldn't restore, as I see it.
Jesus was also destroyed at the cross, in my opinion.

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

in this case if you have questions as to which death that is, it is best to type that passage into Biblehub interlinear, to seek out all the occurances of the word.
In this case, you just happened to choose the wrong translation.
It is like this: Luke 12:5 Interlinear: but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.

So the word "destroy" doesn't figure in that passage.
However, speaking from own memory, in Psalms there is a passage that does say "destroy" indeed.
So if you want to know if this destruction ois eternal, seek out the exact word used for "destroy", click on it at Biblehub interliniear and find in which context this word is used at other occurances.
If I remember well, this word was used fairly often in circumstances in which the destruction was not final.
But find out yourself!

Thomas
P.S.: I would choose another translation. KJV is 98% right as I see it.
They sometimes make mistakes, as I see it. For instance they said virgin birth when in fact Bible only mentions that a virgin became pregnant (which is not the same, of course) - I'm speaking from memory here.
So if you want to be 100% sure... take Biblehub Interlinear version.

 

[Deeje]

I’m sorry but I’ve got a lot going on right now. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask @Deeje , @tigger2 , @Eyes to See , @URAVIP2ME , @nPeace , or @Misty Woods to explain differences between those called ‘brothers of Christ’, and the sheep, of Matthew 25.

There are three groups mentioned in Matthew 25:34-40.....

"Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"

There are "sheep", "goats" and Christ's "brothers" in this passage.

The "goats" are eliminated from existence because they failed to render any assistance to Christ's brothers......but the "sheep" are granted life because of the aid they render to Christ's brothers, helping those who are chosen to rule with him in heaven. Those who might have been hungry, or lacking clothing, or in need of hospitality or help during illness, and even in prison because of their preaching work, the sheep come to their aid....and make sure that they are taken care of.

 

[Brian2]

That's a really sensible answer, Brian. My thought is that some of these conflict with the other.

There may be conflict but they probably aren't mutually exclusive, it's not one or the other. Anyway they are just ways to understand how atonement works. When it comes to the eventual fate of the any who may not be saved, there are definitely differences of opinion. I must admit I don't know and I hope that most people are saved one way or the other but I have to leave it to God.

 

[capumetu]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.
Eternal damnation and annihilation are the same. God offers everlasting life, or death from the very start.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

Because the Bible you read has been translated you have to research the original words, that passage is referring to gehenna. For you to understand it, you need to look at the time period as well as to whom Jesus stated it to. What is actually meant by it's usage is that those with that judgment, will not inherit everlasting life.

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?


I hope that helps

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Hello?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There may be conflict but they probably aren't mutually exclusive, it's not one or the other. Anyway they are just ways to understand how atonement works. When it comes to the eventual fate of the any who may not be saved, there are definitely differences of opinion. I must admit I don't know and I hope that most people are saved one way or the other but I have to leave it to God.

Another sensible answer. What a refreshing change.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The "goats" are eliminated from existence

The passage is pretty explicit that the suffering is "everlasting". There's nothing about the king wiping them out of existence.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Hi SAT,
thank you for sharing your questions.
No. 2, in my opinion, doesn't exist.
There is nothing that God destroys that he couldn't restore, as I see it.
Jesus was also destroyed at the cross, in my opinion.

in this case if you have questions as to which death that is, it is best to type that passage into Biblehub interlinear, to seek out all the occurances of the word.
In this case, you just happened to choose the wrong translation.
It is like this: Luke 12:5 Interlinear: but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.

So the word "destroy" doesn't figure in that passage.
However, speaking from own memory, in Psalms there is a passage that does say "destroy" indeed.
So if you want to know if this destruction ois eternal, seek out the exact word used for "destroy", click on it at Biblehub interliniear and find in which context this word is used at other occurances.
If I remember well, this word was used fairly often in circumstances in which the destruction was not final.
But find out yourself!

Thomas
P.S.: I would choose another translation. KJV is 98% right as I see it.
They sometimes make mistakes, as I see it. For instance they said virgin birth when in fact Bible only mentions that a virgin became pregnant (which is not the same, of course) - I'm speaking from memory here.
So if you want to be 100% sure... take Biblehub Interlinear version.

I appreciate the referral. the word "destroy", whether it means figurative destroy or literal destroy, is the subject of much controversy in Christianity.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I am no Christian, but I can confidently say that these particular verses you have chosen are from two different books. First two from Matthew, while the second is from Titus.

The book of Matthew was probably written by one person, and if you read through the whole gospel, you would note that there two verses do not contradict, but contradistinct. Actually, it is even unfair to say they contra distinct, because one is just speaking of eternal fire, which could easily be the means of destroying "body and soul". These do not seem to be two different things, but the same exact thing.

And about God the saviour in Titus, it is a completely different writer, and I will refrain from giving any theological basis's.

Maybe since I am no Christian you can dismiss this if you wish.

Peace.

I give every response thoughtful consideration. I've always heard the Bible never contradicts itself even when two or more passage say the exact opposite thing. This is why Christianity has three distinct camps each of them having millions of followers who believe in one of the three. Never contradicts itself, indeed.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I do not believe that salvation comes through Jesus in this new age. I believe it did come through Jesus when the New Testament was written and during the Dispensation of Jesus, but I believe that Dispensation has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. As such, those who choose not to accept and obey his plan of salvation might pay a heavy price.

That's your choice to believe as you want. Galatians 1:8-9

 

[firedragon]

I give every response thoughtful consideration. I've always heard the Bible never contradicts itself even when two or more passage say the exact opposite thing. This is why Christianity has three distinct camps each of them having millions of followers who believe in one of the three. Never contradicts itself, indeed.

Thats not what I said at all though.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Thats not what I said at all though.

I may have misunderstood it. I'll go back and read it again.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I am no Christian, but I can confidently say that these particular verses you have chosen are from two different books. First two from Matthew, while the second is from Titus.

The book of Matthew was probably written by one person, and if you read through the whole gospel, you would note that there two verses do not contradict, but contradistinct. Actually, it is even unfair to say they contra distinct, because one is just speaking of eternal fire, which could easily be the means of destroying "body and soul". These do not seem to be two different things, but the same exact thing.

And about God the saviour in Titus, it is a completely different writer, and I will refrain from giving any theological basis's.

Maybe since I am no Christian you can dismiss this if you wish.

Peace.

Okay, looking at your post I am embarrassed to say I cannot comprehend contradistinct. I've never heard the word so I can't address contradistinctions in Matthew. The two passage for eternal torment are taken from the same passage in chapter 25 so i doubt there can be contradistinctions in it. It'd be more fair to compare it with other books in the Bible. Matthew seems to agree with Revelation and 2 Thessalonians. Matthew in verse 25:41 says eternal fire and in 25:46 says eternal punishment. So it can't be annihilation. It has to be eternal torment in fire.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's your choice to believe as you want. Galatians 1:8-9

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel. The Baha’i Faith is a new Revelation from God, separate from the Bible, albeit connected, since there is only one religion of God that is revealed in various chapters throughout the ages.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Christianity fulfilled its purpose a long time ago and that is why God sent a new Messenger with a new Revelation to renew religion.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel. The Baha’i Faith is a new Revelation from God, separate from the Bible, albeit connected, since there is only one religion of God that is revealed in various chapters throughout the ages.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Christianity fulfilled its purpose a long time ago and that is why God sent a new Messenger with a new Revelation to renew religion.

The, "If someone preaches something else, be accursed" thing is just nonsense. Paul didn't want his hard work of getting people to believe his brand of religion to be threatened by someone else, even if that person was carrying the truth that exposed Paul's lies. Paul said, "If I lie to spread my religion why criticize me for it?" Huh?!