TX Lt. Gov. Blames El Paso Shooting on Not Letting Kids “Pray in Our Schools”

[Shadow Wolf]

Most of the federals were as racist as the confederates, and the presumed purpose of the war was to preserve the union, not to abolish slavery.

That's still what it took to abolish it, as Lincoln only did away with it in the union and set not a single slave free when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

 

[Shad]

I have. The Bible condones slavery. The side fighting for slavery was the one accurately citing it.

Cite it in a post or reference it.

What else do you call it when someone says something is a great evil but god says it's ok and permits it? Simply put, they called themselves Christian, but they had a greater sense of morality than the god of the Bible.

This is projection as you are not using any source to back this.

The evidence is that no where, not once, not ever in entire Bible is slavery condemned. To the contrary Jehovah permits it and reinforces the idea that people can be captured or given away like animals and bought and sold like commodities.
As for the rest: Serve well, slaves (Ephesians 6:5); honor your master, slaves (1 Timothy 6:1); be submissive, slaves (Tidus 2:9); be enthusiastic in your service (Ephesians 6:8); multiple times he tells slaves to serve their master as if they are servings Christ, because, as he says, they are serving Christ by fulfilling their duties as slaves.

Now cite something from Christian abolitionists which you claimed rejected the Bible completely. Not merely your interpretation of something you never cited.

Try again.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now cite something from Christian abolitionists which you claimed rejected the Bible completely. Not merely your interpretation of something you never cited.

They cited stuff like saying there is no freeman or slave, male or female before god. That didn't condemn slavery, it only reinforced the idea that all are equal before god. And, ultimately, you can't cite what isn't there because the Bible NEVER condemns slavery.

 

[Shad]

That's still what it took to abolish it, as Lincoln only did away with it in the union and set not a single slave free when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

Wrong. The proclamation gave legal freemen status to 3.5 million slaves in the Confederacy as it was consider part of the US by the Union. Lincoln ratified 13a

 

[Shad]

They cited stuff like saying there is no freeman or slave, male or female before god. That didn't condone slavery, it only reinforced the idea that all are equal before god. And, ultimately, you can't cite what isn't there because the Bible NEVER condemns slavery.

Again cite something not paraphrase.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Again cite something not paraphrase.

Cite what? Do you expect me to make up a "Wolfie 3:16 Thy Bible thou thumpest condemns not slavery?"

 

[Shad]

Cite what? Do you expect me to make up a "Wolfie 3:16 Thy Bible thou thumpest condemns not slavery?"

I want you to cite something from the abolitionists you claimed had no argument from the Bible. Not your opinion on something you never posted.

 

[Valjean]

Wrong.

Wrong.

Which was filled by Christians. Try again.

I think you need to brush up on your history.
The war was promoted to preserve the union. Abolition wouldn't have garnered much public enthusiasm.
The proclamation was intended to cripple the Confederacy, and it only applied to slaves in the rebellious territories. 10 Facts: The Emancipation Proclamation

 

[Dan Mellis]

So... let me see if I understand what are you saying. Before, when people when to church, prayed in church and in schools, read the Bible in church and in the schools, when violent movies (or video games) were not for children and correction in school was "You have detention for chewing gum" and now that you can't and don't, there is no correlation?

You're right, there is no correlation. In the UK we don't have enforced worship. In Sweden, Australia, Canada, Norway, France (you get the point) they don't either. They're way less religious than the US, yet they have lower gun crime... Isn't that strange?

What they do have are tougher gun laws. Note that guns aren't illegal in these countries (at least they aren't in the UK and in aus), but you have to jump through hoops to get a license. There is far more evidence for a negative correlation between gun laws and number of shootings (mass shootings or otherwise) than there is for a correlation between prayer and school discipline and shootings. In fact, if anything, it would seem on the face of it that less religious countries have lower murder rates, lower infant mortality rates, better quality of life... Remind me again what benefit your god brings?

 

[Kenny]

You're right, there is no correlation. In the UK we don't have enforced worship. In Sweden, Australia, Canada, Norway, France (you get the point) they don't either. They're way less religious than the US, yet they have lower gun crime... Isn't that strange?

I think there is. (side note - there is no enforced worship in US). Because there is much more than just gun crime... there is suicide, teen pregnancy, and a host of other things.

And how many of those who murdered were Christians vs not religious?

What they do have are tougher gun laws. Note that guns aren't illegal in these countries (at least they aren't in the UK and in aus), but you have to jump through hoops to get a license. There is far more evidence for a negative correlation between gun laws and number of shootings (mass shootings or otherwise) than there is for a correlation between prayer and school discipline and shootings. In fact, if anything, it would seem on the face of it that less religious countries have lower murder rates, lower infant mortality rates, better quality of life... Remind me again what benefit your god brings?

Tougher gun laws? Doesn't seem like that is the key.

"Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates. According to a 2014 United Nations report, Germany's murder rate of 0.8 killings per 100,000 inhabitants was identical to Luxembourg, where the law prohibits civilian ownership of handguns and gun ownership is rare [source: UNODOC, Kates and Mauser]."

Australia is not a gun ownership country. The right was removed some time ago.

Benefit? Those who do kill, steal, and do other things find their lives changed around when they became Christians.

Remember... there are many people who label themselves religious who later say "I then became a Christian" - that is the problem with surveys.

 

[Dan Mellis]

I think there is. (side note - there is no enforced worship in US). Because there is much more than just gun crime... there is suicide, teen pregnancy, and a host of other things.

And how many of those who murdered were Christians vs not religious?



Tougher gun laws? Doesn't seem like that is the key.

"Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark, all countries with heavy gun ownership, have a history of low murder rates. According to a 2014 United Nations report, Germany's murder rate of 0.8 killings per 100,000 inhabitants was identical to Luxembourg, where the law prohibits civilian ownership of handguns and gun ownership is rare [source: UNODOC, Kates and Mauser]."

Australia is not a gun ownership country. The right was removed some time ago.

Benefit? Those who do kill, steal, and do other things find their lives changed around when they became Christians.

Remember... there are many people who label themselves religious who later say "I then became a Christian" - that is the problem with surveys.

OK, you found Germany and Luxembourgs stats. What is the US murder rate? Secular organisations can and have also been responsible for turn around peoples lives. I'm not denying religion can have benefits, but I am claiming that there is no benefit religion brings that cannot be brought by non religious means, and that religion is more harmful than a lack thereof.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's insensitive to keep saying this happens because kids don't pray in school, that people need to turn to god and things will get better, and that prayers will solve our problems. It's to the point we can say that **** doesn't work, and point out a million hands clasped in prayer does and achieves significantly less than two hands at work. We need real action and solutions, not prayers to an absent figure in the sky.

Do you think any of the mass shootings were led by people who trusted in the Christian God? How about the Jewish God? The Muslim God? How about by atheists?

I agree with you to an extent--hungry people can't eat my prayers, but they can eat real food I provide--however, access to the POWER is often more than helpful!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Relevance?

The canard that prayer in school does NOT prevent/forestall violence.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why is it that you see atheists behind every tree?

You're right! There are many trolls here on RF. Atheists tend to encapsulate the bulk of anti-Christian arguments and anti-God arguments. At least the religious trolls... are religious, yes?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Lies make baby Jesus cry. The OP clearly highlights an Evangelical politician blaming gun violence on a lack of school imposed religious practice.

And... the politician seems right. Do you disagree?

"The nations that forget God will be turned into Hell" -- The Bible

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not all of us.

Yessir. Thank God for that!

 

[Shad]

I think you need to brush up on your history.
The war was promoted to preserve the union. Abolition wouldn't have garnered much public enthusiasm.
The proclamation was intended to cripple the Confederacy, and it only applied to slaves in the rebellious territories. 10 Facts: The Emancipation Proclamation

You cut out the 13a which Lincoln signed. Try again.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you think any of the mass shootings were led by people who trusted in the Christian God? How about the Jewish God? The Muslim God? How about by atheists?

What does it matter? Some of the greatest evils and most heinous of crimes have been carried out in the name of Christianity and Islam. The OT gives us examples of atrocious savagery carried out in the name of Judaism at god's behest.

 

[Kenny]

OK, you found Germany and Luxembourgs stats. What is the US murder rate? Secular organisations can and have also been responsible for turn around peoples lives. I'm not denying religion can have benefits, but I am claiming that there is no benefit religion brings that cannot be brought by non religious means, and that religion is more harmful than a lack thereof.

Well... we have differences of viewpoints. But thanks for seeing that gun control doesn't translate into less murder.

Let's take, for example, Gang member/leader, Nicki Cruz of New York City. The Gospel not only turned his life around but impacted many of the gang members.

Question... do you think that translated into less murders and less gun violence. Any correlation to his conversion and murder rates?

Think about it and then you will understand my viewpoint. However, I certainly won't hold it against you for seeing it differently

 

[Dan Mellis]

Well... we have differences of viewpoints. But thanks for seeing that gun control doesn't translate into less murder.

Let's take, for example, Gang member/leader, Nicki Cruz of New York City. The Gospel not only turned his life around but impacted many of the gang members.

Question... do you think that translated into less murders and less gun violence. Any correlation to his conversion and murder rates?

Think about it and then you will understand my viewpoint. However, I certainly won't hold it against you for seeing it differently

Actually, I was saying that less guns = less gun crime. The US murder rate per capita is 5.3, which is far higher than any European country.

Yes, I could see a situation where religion could reduce gun crime. I could also see a situation where its the cause of it, or the cause of a reduction in gun crime but an increase of homophobia.

If humanism were to be substituted in place of Christianity, the risk of negative effects would be far lower. This brings us back to the fact that in general, less religious countries score higher in social welfare metrics and lower in crime rate metrics. Hence, the US has one of the highest murder, std, poverty, infant mortality and hate crime rates in the developed world, whereas Luxembourg and Norway have some of the lowest.