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"U.S. Image Suffers as Publics Around World Question Trump’s Leadership"

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
He ran on a platform in which he criticized free trade and globalism, which is something quite rare for a political candidate. That's what made him stand out in so many people's eyes. There was a finally candidate who actually wanted to do something for America, not someone who wanted to go along with the status quo or put the benefit of foreign nations ahead of America.

Believe it or not, there are still some people in America who believe that the top priority for a US President should be the well-being of America, not "alliances." Many would rather that the US President be the leader of America, not the "leader of the free world." There is too much suffering and misery in America for us to be concerned with the outside world. The government should make the American people its top priority.
And I would say he is failing at that miserably. Let me ask you something. How can a leader of America openly mock a disabled reporter, a citizen of that very same country? Alienate minorities that are also his own citizens? Why would a leader of America continue to hold rallies and tweet divisive and polarizing material? His rhetoric is widening the rift, not making it smaller. So, excuse me for not buying the whole "for America" thing when he lacks the basic political ability to understand and express views in a way that his own people can trust.

Sure, there is suffering in America, but we don't hear about that in his speeches, in his addresses. We do not hear ideas, specific plans or initiatives. We hear him brag about the election from half a year ago, we hear about the "fake news" that makes him look bad and we hear divisive rhetoric targeting minorities and religious institutions that do not align with main stream Christianity. So... no. At this time you cannot convince me he is acting in the best interest of the American people.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
He ran on a platform in which he criticized free trade and globalism, which is something quite rare for a political candidate.
... while also saying that global companies should be freer to do as they please, though when he was doing that, he called it "being business-friendly" and "cutting red tape."

That's what made him stand out in so many people's eyes. There was a finally candidate who actually wanted to do something for America, not someone who wanted to go along with the status quo or put the benefit of foreign nations ahead of America.
He had lots of flags and rhetoric at his rallies, but when you scratch the surface and ask "what's he actually promising to do? Will it help or hurt the country?" the veneer comes off.

Believe it or not, there are still some people in America who believe that the top priority for a US President should be the well-being of America, not "alliances."
The two things are linked.

If the US follows the isolationist examples from history, it will end the same way: the US will become irrelevant as other great powers rise and become the ones that can dictate terms.

Following the example of Tokugawa Japan is a good way to get the equivalent of Admiral Perry sailing up with his gunboats while you "negotiate" treaties with the great powers that emerged while you walled yourself off.

Many would rather that the US President be the leader of America, not the "leader of the free world." There is too much suffering and misery in America for us to be concerned with the outside world. The government should make the American people its top priority.
Which presidents do you think didn't make the American people their top priority?

(You could argue that Trump is GD liar and a phony, and you'd likely be correct, but I'm only exploring the reasons why people might be fed up with the status quo and vote for someone like Trump. That's what seems to be ignored in all of these discussions about Trump.)
I haven't ignored America's problems. I've posted here before about how the economic recovery might have been okay when looking at state-by-state GDP or unemployment, but at a more detailed level, the recovery created new winners and missed helping a lot of people who were disadvantaged.

It also has not escaped notice that many of the same people bashing Trump have been the same people who have driven America's economy and standard of living into the ground these past decades - both Democrats and Republicans. That's the real issue, as I see it. It has very little to do with Trump as much as it has to do with the disastrous way this country has been governed these past decades. If anyone of them are upset about Trump today, then (instead of making Trump the issue) they should be apologizing profusely to the American people for the incompetent and gross mismanagement which caused the conditions leading to Trump's election in the first place.
He challenges the status quo, sure, but there are good and bad ways to do that. This is what I was getting at with my comment about burning the whole thing down.

It's one thing to be upset with your landlord. It's another thing to get back at him by setting your apartment on fire.

Dishonestly or not, Trump ran on a platform of "making America great again." None of the candidates said that, so voters might assume that they didn't want America to be great. None of them even bothered to ask why America isn't great anymore nor what it would take to make America great again. Because they never cared about that.
So kind of like this: xkcd: Free

"His health care cuts will kill my grandmother, but I'm willing to overlook that because he wears a patriotic hat."

I suppose my biggest frustration in these discussions is that no one seems to be grasping any of the lessons they should be learning from this. Listening to many of these Trump-bashers, they're just assuming that the people who voted for Trump are nothing but a bunch of "bumpkins" and "hillbillies" and leave it at that. As if that's supposed to answer everything.
Frankly, I don't actually see that much of demonizing Trump supporters. What I see is people calling out Trump and his platform for its bad ideas and explicit racism, and legitimate criticism of the real but small group of geniuine white supremacists in the "alt-right", which Fox News and Breitbart spin into "see? They're calling you a stupid racist for supporting Trump."

I don't see much reasoned analysis in such arguments, so it makes me wonder if very many people truly understand what's going on in America these days and why we're heading in the direction we are.
If you aren't seeing reasoned arguments, then I have to ask: where are you looking?

Just as you said above, "I don't see the connection." I'm not criticizing you; your view is quite common these days. But I have to ask: Why can't you (or others) see the connection here? Why are so few people willing to take a long hard look at America, the world, and the overall situation we're facing and come to some sort of intelligent, reasoned analysis which would explain what's going on? It really shouldn't be that difficult to figure out, but people have to stop with their obsession of bashing Trump and ridiculing his supporters before their head clears up enough to be able to see.
Just to be clear: I'm not saying that America has no problems; it has some pretty deep and serious ones. What I can't see is why someone would seriously believe that Trump's the person to solve any of them.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So... no. At this time you cannot convince me he is acting in the best interest of the American people.

I never said that he was. The question was why were people so fed up with the status quo that they would be tempted to vote for Trump. It's not about Trump, yet you're trying to put the focus back on him.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I never said that he was. The question was why were people so fed up with the status quo that they would be tempted to vote for Trump. It's not about Trump, yet you're trying to put the focus back on him.
As I said: "I'm so frustrated with the status quo that I want someone to just burn the whole thing down."
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
... while also saying that global companies should be freer to do as they please, though when he was doing that, he called it "being business-friendly" and "cutting red tape."

Well, at least he was giving some indication that he understood that Americans were fed up with free trade and globalism. None of the other candidates understood this. Perhaps you can tell me why Trump, of all people, has a better understanding of America and Americans than all the other candidates? Why couldn't a single one of them understand that Americans are fed up with all the BS?

He had lots of flags and rhetoric at his rallies, but when you scratch the surface and ask "what's he actually promising to do? Will it help or hurt the country?" the veneer comes off.

True, but again, at least he put the effort in, which is more than what the other candidates did. That's why he is in the White House, and they're not.

The two things are linked.

If the US follows the isolationist examples from history, it will end the same way: the US will become irrelevant as other great powers rise and become the ones that can dictate terms.

The US has never been isolationist. Neutrality is not the same thing as isolationism.

Besides, even if we call the Interwar period "isolationist," the US did not become irrelevant during WW2. The Allied powers practically begged us to join in.

Following the example of Tokugawa Japan is a good way to get the equivalent of Admiral Perry sailing up with his gunboats while you "negotiate" treaties with the great powers that emerged while you walled yourself off.

Not the same thing. Not even close.

Which presidents do you think didn't make the American people their top priority?

Not anyone recent that I can tell.

Think of the rhetoric that we hear. Millions of unemployed and homeless Americans out there, and very few people care at all. But Trump issues a travel ban (which only affects non-Americans), and suddenly everyone starts screaming like a pack of banshees. Tell me where their priorities are.

Or when the subject of free trade is brought up, we keep hearing about how protectionism will damage relations with other countries - even if it's done for the benefit of America. It's obvious that when such statements are made, the American people are not their top priority.

It's the same thing regarding America's role in NATO or our general practice of interventionism and acting as the world's policeman. People keep saying that America has some sort of responsibility to the rest of the world, while neglecting our responsibility to ourselves. Tell me how this constitutes making the American people our government's top priority.

I haven't ignored America's problems. I've posted here before about how the economic recovery might have been okay when looking at state-by-state GDP or unemployment, but at a more detailed level, the recovery created new winners and missed helping a lot of people who were disadvantaged.

Fair enough, although the problems are not just due to economics. As with anything, America's poor economy right now is more a symptom of a deeper problem, rooted in apathy, complacency, malaise, myopia, and a general mistrust Americans have in their government and even in each other.

I happen to think that if our government showed a greater commitment to ensuring economic justice, it would probably go a long way in restoring the faith and confidence of the American people.

What Trump has done is appeal to Americans who remember times when America was on much more solid ground. Americans remember that their country was once great, and now Trump promised to "make America great again." The question that should be asked is: Why don't people think America is still great anymore? What has happened between now and the time that we used to be "great"?

Of course, Trump lied about it, and I'm not sure what he's doing now. But the real issue now is whether anyone can truly grasp exactly why there is so much despair and melancholy in the country that Trump was able to capitalize on it and gain political office.

This is not something that should be taken lightly. Remember, this is not about Trump. Trump probably won't last, but there will be others who may take the same approach. Trump should act as a warning to both parties that they'd better get their laundry in gear, or else you're going to get more Trump-like candidates coming out the woodwork.

He challenges the status quo, sure, but there are good and bad ways to do that. This is what I was getting at with my comment about burning the whole thing down.

It's one thing to be upset with your landlord. It's another thing to get back at him by setting your apartment on fire.

There might be those who feel that way. Every country has its share of anarchists and revolutionaries who might want to burn the whole thing down. There are riots when people want to burn down their own neighborhoods. I'm not condoning such things, but it's easy for people living comfortably to pass judgment on those who are angry at injustice.

I don't think Trump will burn the whole thing down anyway. In some ways, his antics are calling more attention to the inner workings of government itself, which may cause other scabs to be opened and we might have a more transparent government when all of this is said and done. Perhaps this could lead to major reforms in how the government operates and does business in the future, so there may be a silver lining.

So kind of like this: xkcd: Free

"His health care cuts will kill my grandmother, but I'm willing to overlook that because he wears a patriotic hat."

I think you're making fun of it because you're only looking at it on a superficial level.

I don't like the health care bill either, but I didn't think Obamacare was any great shakes either. But the health care cuts won't kill your grandmother. It's those who have the equipment and expertise to save your grandmother's life, yet refuse to do so because they're not getting paid enough money.

Frankly, I don't actually see that much of demonizing Trump supporters.

Oh, it's there.

What I see is people calling out Trump and his platform for its bad ideas and explicit racism, and legitimate criticism of the real but small group of geniuine white supremacists in the "alt-right", which Fox News and Breitbart spin into "see? They're calling you a stupid racist for supporting Trump."

I don't follow Fox News or Breitbart that closely, so you could be right. But you yourself mentioned the voters and remarked that people outside the US were questioning how well they knew the American people. If they're only looking at it on a superficial level, then there might be a lot of things they miss.

If you aren't seeing reasoned arguments, then I have to ask: where are you looking?

Where should I look? This refers again to those who make assumptions about why so many people voted for Trump. Remarks about the voters being stupid, as well as paranoid delusions that "the Russians did it!" There have been a few thoughtful essays I've seen which give greater insight and go deeper into what's actually going on and taking a more accurate pulse of the political direction in this country. So, it's not completely devoid of reason, but let's face it, the majority of the rhetoric out there is pointless nonsense, meant to distract the public and take attention away from real issues.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that America has no problems; it has some pretty deep and serious ones. What I can't see is why someone would seriously believe that Trump's the person to solve any of them.

Well, he's not, but that's beside the point.

The real question we should be asking is: Why did so many people choose a guy like Trump over all of the other pre-approved "acceptable" candidates? How could a field of candidates be so riddled with garbage that a person like Donald Trump could best them all? How does that happen?

The elephant in the living room that no one seems to be discussing is that Donald Trump is President of These United States because neither party could find anyone else who was better. That's the sad truth here.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I never said that he was. The question was why were people so fed up with the status quo that they would be tempted to vote for Trump. It's not about Trump, yet you're trying to put the focus back on him.
Ah okay, I follow you now. My bad. :oops:
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah okay, I follow you now. My bad. :oops:

No problem. My whole position on this is that Trump is more of a symptom. Trump is not really the problem; the problem is us. I suppose if I was religious, I might argue that Trump is some sort of "penance" that we all have to serve, in order that we can contemplate and consider just what kind of democratic system we truly have and whether it truly reflects the will of the people and best interests of the country.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems you also couldn't care less about any American business that relies on trade treaties. Or any tourist-oriented business in a border state.

Trump's chilling effect on tourism in America isn't limited to border states:

"Arne Sorenson, Marriott’s boss, has voiced concern about a potential slump in tourism. In February, ForwardKeys, a travel-data firm, reported that in the week after Mr Trump first tried to ban travel from seven Muslim-majority countries, international bookings dropped by 6.5% against the same period in 2016. Hopper, a travel app, found that average daily searches for flights to America have declined in 99 countries since Mr Trump tried to issue his travel ban, compared with the last weeks of Barack Obama’s term. Russia is one of the few places where demand has risen (see chart). Tourism Economics, a forecaster, expects 2m fewer foreign visits to America this year, a 1% drop from 2016. Without Mr Trump it had expected a 3% jump." How Donald Trump affects America’s tourist business
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a thought regarding this, interested in your input. What do you think would happen if the citizens of these countries began to vote on political platforms that are against US interests due to the undiplomatic nature of Trump and the boys? Would that shift your thinking at all?

For a fictional example: "Newly elected president to Quetzal-land vows to make good on political promise to reject *super money making business deal for the US*. Here is what he had to say: 'We will no longer bow to the bully tactics and bullish tendencies of the US led my President Trump-.'" etc.

They do vote - with their dollars, or in this case, their pesos.

Mexicans are boycotting US Products to protest Trump's wall tax


"Just days after the Trump Administration said it was considering taxing Mexican imports to pay for a border wall, Mexican consumers are vowing to stop buying US products. Mexico is teeming with US restaurants, coffeeshops, stores and products. Walmart's Mexico division, for example, is the largest outside the U.S. with 2,379 stores, including 256 Walmart Supercenters. Starbuck's and McDonald's have more than 500 stores each across Mexico. Per capita, Mexicans are also the number one consumers of Coca-Cola in the world, according to the SMI Group."
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
They do vote - with their dollars, or in this case, their pesos.

Mexicans are boycotting US Products to protest Trump's wall tax


"Just days after the Trump Administration said it was considering taxing Mexican imports to pay for a border wall, Mexican consumers are vowing to stop buying US products. Mexico is teeming with US restaurants, coffeeshops, stores and products. Walmart's Mexico division, for example, is the largest outside the U.S. with 2,379 stores, including 256 Walmart Supercenters. Starbuck's and McDonald's have more than 500 stores each across Mexico. Per capita, Mexicans are also the number one consumers of Coca-Cola in the world, according to the SMI Group."
Speaking of taxing imports, didn't Trump say something about a 35% import tax on companies that ship jobs overseas? How's that coming along?

I think it's another broken promise
Donald Trump doubles down on 35% tax for businesses that ship jobs out of U.S.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
they're not looking just at Trump, but at other influential figures and the media in general, many of whom are openly deriding Trump and demonstrating a profound loss of confidence in Trump. Because they're doing this in full view of the outside world, it should be no surprise that their media is reflecting US media, thus shaping the opinions of their own people about America and Trump's apparent role in ruining our image. So, it's kind of a chicken-egg question: Is it Trump or Trump's opponents who are ruining the image of America?

Criticizing the president is a constant, but the president and his disposition isn't.

Did Obama's detractors diminish the world's view of America? I don't think so. Obama remained a popular president in the eyes of the world notwithstanding the incessant attacks on his character and integrity.

Then came a change of president, criticism continued, and the world's trust and confidence in America declined.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
What is the military budget of the "other countries". Do you really think they have the military strength to oppose an aggression against a neighbor. Seems like we have been down this road once before. Of course those that do not study history are doomed to repeat it.
NATO Without America: A Grim Prognosis

At one time all the water and distance to the Usa was a protective advantage.
Now it is porous to its land borders. And its massive coastline is an advantage to attacks by terrorists.
Modern weapon platforms and missiles can attack any where on the mainland.

In the past world wars were conducted in and arround Europe and laterly in the far east.
The USA's nations to the south are all less than totally friendly, and are likely to stand back, rather than get involved in any confict. Or more likely turn a blind eye to terorist activity.

Neither China nor Russia needs to use direct force to cripple any country they wish to, warfare has moved online. And targeted attack is by drone.
 
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