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UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.
- Thread starter Twilight Hue
- Start date
If God kills someone, it is not a murder (unlawful killing), because He has given life and therefore has right to decide how long it lasts. Or do you think there is some intelligent reason why God should give more than what He gives?
(People don’t give life, they just in nice case let it continue)
Interesting, I don’t think God was guilty for Satan’s actions. God is guilty to giving life also for evil, but I think that is not a crime.
If the boss didn’t order them and didn’t commit the crime, then obviously, he is not guilty. I think it is really sick, if people are judged guilty for crimes they have not done.
The Genesis creation myth is no more accurate than its Babylonian or Viking equivalents (or any other). They all missed the mark established by science. Nobody except fundamentalist Abrahamic theists considers Genesis science.
By the way, have you ever noticed that if there is any overlap between science and scripture, such as that the universe appears to have had a beginning, creationists rush to point out that science agreed with them, while science makes no reference to any holy book or creation myth?
are unwittingly giving science the nod as authoritative - the gold standard by which truth is decided. Science is uninterested in whether scriptures agree with it or not.
Then you fit your own definition of evil.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I always amazes me when Christians say this. It is just plain wrong. A God that murders the innocent would be a murderer.
These types of verses tell me that the God of the Bible is not actually God.
The whole book says YHVH is responsible. It is only Christians that change the story and say Satan is responsible, and an evil being.
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:18 For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.
Job 5:19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.
Job 10:15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;
Job 10:16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me.
Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.
Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Job 19:11 He hath also kindled his wrath against me, and he counteth me unto him as one of his enemies.
Job 19:22 Why do ye persecute me God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
Job 23:16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
As you can see, the story put the blame for everything that happens on YHVH, - all the way through the story, = beginning to end.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
But he did order this in the Job story.
Job 1:8 And said YHVH to Satan, do put your regard upon my servant Job for there is none like him on the earth, a man pious and upright, fearing Elohiym and turning from wickedness.
See my post # 245.
The story tells us YHVH is responsible for ALL the torture and murder all the way through it, - beginning to end.
Also - it says he personally murdered King David's innocent baby, for David's crimes. That's truly sick.
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
There are many bible passages that do indicate Satan has being evil and destructive.
What does it mean to be called the Devil ?
What does it mean to be called Evil?
Devil and Evil go hand in hand, both meaning the same thing.
Devil simple means, the supreme personification of Evil.
Therefore Satan is called the Dragon, the old Serpent, the Devil = Evil.
Revelation 12:9
These are just some of the names that Repsents Satan.
What does it mean to be called the Devil ?
What does it mean to be called Evil?
Devil and Evil go hand in hand, both meaning the same thing.
Devil simple means, the supreme personification of Evil.
Therefore Satan is called the Dragon, the old Serpent, the Devil = Evil.
Revelation 12:9
These are just some of the names that Repsents Satan.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
What ever do you mean by Murdered ?
David's child was not murdered, as you suppose.
Everyone including David understood, in breaking the law, blood had to be given for the atonement of breaking the law.
So the penalty of Davids, the child was taken, not murdered as you suppose.
Further more the child is still alive, But you wouldn't be able to grasp this ?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
What a bunch of baloney. Killing David - would be blood for blood. Killing the innocent, - while making the criminal a hero, - is evil murder.
When you purposely cause an infant to become sick and die, for the crimes of someone else, - that is murder, and VERY evil.
And I might add the infant was tortured. The story says it took seven days for him to die.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith YHVH, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
Interesting isn't it that this iron age God created by men, - does evil to the innocents - besides the evildoer? That this is written by men is shown by the patriarchal evil acts that they do. It says YHVH took the criminal David's innocent wives. - for David's crimes! His innocent baby is killed because of his crime - while David lives. Definitely the writings of iron age patriarchal men.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against YHVH. And Nathan said unto David, YHVH also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of YHVH to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And YHVH struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Whom are you responding to?
The things you said above, - are all a later religions additions to a Hebrew Satan, - whom Tanakh says is a servant of YHVH, not evil.
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Interesting claim. King James and World English Bible tell that God asked, has Satan considered…
Yahweh said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil."
The point is, has Satan noticed how upright Job is. And then it continues with, yeah, of course he is, when things are nice… …God didn’t order anything in that.
Yet it was Satan who did all the evil things.
If Satan is your hero, shouldn’t he be better and wiser?
The problem, for a lot of us, and what you cannot see, and it's what I coloured red. The fact that the Bible has something "written in it," (or that the Quran does, or the Rig Veda, or the Granth Guru Sahib, or Harry Potter or Cinderella) in no way makes that writing factually correct. You, for example, accept that what's written in the Bible is factually correct, but the rest of my list is not. I insist, because it seems so clear to me, that all of those books -- INCLUDING THE BIBLE -- were written by humans, and were all therefore subject to both human error, human imagination, and human ambition. But nothing makes them -- necessarily -- factually correct.
So yes -- lots of stuff is written in the Bible. So what? Does that make bats into birds? Does that really mean that the entire earth was covered in water, or that there was an actual Adam and
Eve? No, it just means that some humans wrote that those things happened. Were they writing fact or fiction? History or myth? Knowledge or hope?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It doesn't matter what you folks think.
Satan is not evil in Tanakh. This is a Tanakh story.
See my post # 245 - The story says YHVH did it all the way through.
Did you miss this part were YHVH says he did it? "MY JUDGMENT."
The whole section - between Job and YHVH
Job 40:1 Moreover YHVH answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered YHVH, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered YHVH unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm/power like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
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It amazes me that you folks don't actually read your Bibles. You let a preacher tell you the meaning.
It even tells us why YHVH chose to pass JUDGMENT upon him. Pride.
The verses below are showing his pride and why he was judged and punished by YHVH.
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Job 29:14 I (JOB) put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.
Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.
Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
Job 30:20 I (JOB) cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not.
Job 30:21 Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me.
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Job 34:4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
Job 34:5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.
Job 34:6 Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression.
Job 34:7 What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?
Job 34:8 Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men.
Job 34:9 For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.
Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.
Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
Job 35:1 Elihu spake moreover, and said,
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
Job 40:1 Moreover YHVH answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered YHVH, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered YHVH unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm/power like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Obviously in this story YHVH did it - it says so all the way through. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? It even tells us why = PRIDE.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
At YHVH's command as a servant of YHVH.
YHVH is responsible, as the story, and YHVH in the story, - tells us.
Why would this fictional being be my hero?
Why would he need to be "better" and "wiser"? He is a servant created by YHVH to do certain things. He does them.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Also with # 254 -
In your Strong's - look up #'s H7760, H3820, H5921.
H7760 is PUT, not - have you.
It is - ... PUT your regard upon ...
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I don't know how it could be said any simpler.
I am only proving the words wrote in the pages. Not the concepts behind them. The Professor claimed the bible does not say Satan is evil. I proved him wrong by showing scripture from the Bible that Satan is evil.
Whether or not Satan is evil. God is real or any of that is actually irrelevant. Because that is not the argument. The argument is what the Bible has written in it. The Professor is wrong, as I proved. End of story.
So stop acting like an elitist. Because you can't even keep pace with this very simple argument, that you lost many pages ago.
Perhaps he is servant, or was, but in the Job case he did his own will and at the same time showed what kind of person he is.
But did you have scripture that tells in the Bible that Satan is God’s servant?
Bible doesn’t seem to say that directly, but you may be correct, the reason could have been pride. If all of it was judgment because of right reasons, then nothing of it was really bad. Only problem is, if Job was guilty to sin, it is odd why God compensated all the suffering.
First, let me point out that I haven't labelled you "elitist" or anything else.
Second, okay, I see what you are trying to prove -- and yes the Bible does indeed say many things -- like bats are birds. So sure, you can find verses that -- if lined up correctly (though out of context) could be read as saying "Satan is evil." However, since --as you also admit -- you are not claiming that this actually makes a claim to any existential reality, that's a really pointless and picayune argument.
That said, I admit you are correct -- I misread what you were actually arguing. For that, I apologize.
But then I go back to your first response in Post#2, where you say: "Being a murderer and liar count would count as evil." And of a certainty, God is a murderer -- it's hard to kill an entire planet full of people and not miss an innocent or two. Killing David's son for David's sin is -- in every law known -- 100% unjust and just as certainly murder. And 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
So by your own argument, God is also evil. And the Bible says so if read with the same sort of verse selection designed to "prove a point."