That argument could go on forever with just the semantics alone. You believe whatever you like. It's of no consequence anyways.
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UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.
- Thread starter Twilight Hue
- Start date
That argument could go on forever with just the semantics alone. You believe whatever you like. It's of no consequence anyways.
I would like to add to what I just wrote, and say that what you really seem to be arguing here -- and I fully agree! -- is that the Bible can be made to say many things that cannot be shown to be true or false, and even many things that are completely contradictory, and therefore impossible.
As I said yes, the Bible indeed do exactly that -- and hence much of the pain or religious persecution and war in human history. And that really raises the obvious question: "How useful is that?"
Exactly. Just like your argument, lo these many pages!
Well to be fair the Professor was easily proven wrong with a minor amount of research!
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Good grief I just showed you MANY verses in Job which say YHVH is responsible.
I showed you the verses were YHVH SAYS YHVH is responsible.
I showed you MANY verses showing WHY. Job is not actually perfect. He is prideful.
It is amazing that the STORY tells us this, - and you folks still turn a blind eye, - because you have been taught something else, and don't want to be wrong.
Genesis tells us everything YHVH created was GOOD.
Genesis does NOT say YHVH created an evil being.
Satan is an angel - all the angels are servants of YHVH.
Satan comes with the rest of the angels in the story.
Satan's job is to be an adversary/tester, and a prosecuting attorney before YHVH when you are found wanting.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Did you know that there are only three stories in Tanakh with a being called Satan? They are Zec and Psa shown above - and the Job story. The Hebrew were not hung up on Satan because he is just a servant in those three stories - or sentences.
All other verses using "satan" mean a normal adversary - that is not the Angel Satan. Such as -
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of YHVH stood in the way for an adversary(satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants were with him. (The angel of YHVH is the satan/adversary.)
Num 22:32 And the angel of YHVH said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine *** these three times? behold, I went out to withstand(satan) thee, because thy way is perverse before me: (The angel of YHVH is the satan/withstander/adversary.) (Obviously they should have translated satan, not as "withstand," but as - I went out as an "adversary" to thee.)
1Ki 11:14 And YHVH stirred up an adversary(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. (Hadad is the satan/adversary.)
1Ki 11:23 And Elohiym stirred him up another adversary(satan), Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah: (Rezon is the satan/adversary.)
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries(satans) unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel? (The sons of Zeruiah are the satans/adversaries.)
I think you get the idea. The BEING SATAN is only in three stories in Tanakh. Two show he is a "prosecuting attorney" accuser for YHVH, and one just showed you that he is following YHVH's orders in Job, - AND, that YHVH says YHVH is responsible in the story.
All other - satan - verses in Tanakh do not mean the Angel Satan, - as shown by the verses.
Later people misunderstood the Satan roll and turned him into an evil autonomous being. They even make him equal to God - calling him the God of this world. NOPE!
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Again - actually READ the story.
In the end Job repents and YHVH gives him more junk.
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
Job 40:1 Moreover YHVH answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered YHVH, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6 Then answered YHVH unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm/power like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:10 And YHVH turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also YHVH gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that YHVH had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wouldn't that be hard to do given that the portrayal of God in the Bible itself is notably far more evil in actions than Satan?
You don't have to be a researcher to see what the Old and New Testament contains to determine that Satan is really not evil in the same vein is God.
To put it in perspective, if a human being did everything that God did that was in the Bible, would you think or honestly say that human being is good ?
I'm pretty sure Professor Kelly with 40 Years of education and research under his belt in going through the pages of the Bible, wouldn't put foreward something that can be construed as debunkable by doing just a minor bit of research from a manuscript dated two thousand plus years ago.
That is the question Elihu makes. It is not a claim and the answer is not necessary yes. After all, Elihu and his friends spoke wrongly.
I have been taught what the Bible tells. And I try to look it as whole, not just single scriptures. Nothing that Bible says is problem for me, it is the interpretations that people have, that cause problems.
That is correct.
But Satan seems to be the one wo rejected God, rebelled against Him and so became the adversary. He may have been good at the beginning, but later turned to evil.
Very beneficial when applied properly. Just like nuclear fusion is beneficial when applied properly (for power). But if it gets in the wrong hands it can be devastating (bombs). But nobody blames the bomb when it kills hundreds of thousands of people. Th
A good reason not to anthromorphize God. Which shouldn't be done anyways.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Again - Tanakh does not say Satan rejected God and became evil at any time.
Later groups misunderstood, or mistranslated Satan texts, and turned him into an evil being.
Isaiah 14 is a good example. Christians insist it is the fall of Satan/Lucifer, when it is actually about the fall of a King of Babylon.
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Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Supposedly, Satan is nothing more than a prosecutor of the soul trying to prove to God how such and such soul is unworthy of heaven...
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
NO. Not "nothing more than a prosecutor of the soul."
Satan's JOB is to test with stumbling blocks/adversity, and if you are found wanting, to bring you before God and accuse you of your failings. A sort of prosecuting attorney.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
There are only three stories in Tanakh with a being called Satan? They are Zec and Psa shown above - and the Job story.
All other verses using "satan" mean a normal adversary - that is not the Angel Satan. Such as -
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of YHVH stood in the way for an adversary(satan) against him. Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants were with him. (The angel of YHVH is the satan/adversary.)
Num 22:32 And the angel of YHVH said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine *** these three times? behold, I went out to withstand(satan) thee, because thy way is perverse before me: (The angel of YHVH is the satan/withstander/adversary.) (Obviously they should have translated satan, not as "withstand," but as - I went out as an "adversary" to thee.)
1Ki 11:14 And YHVH stirred up an adversary(satan) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. (Hadad is the satan/adversary.)
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Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
This Professor must be illiterate or morally bankrupt.
John 8:44 KJV
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Being a murderer and liar count would count as evil. Soz
You do realize King James was gay right? Nice of you quoting from someone who was historically considered an abomination...
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
But who was the Satan that told Jesus to bow before him?
Someone being gay or not, is of no concern of mine. It does not diminish them one bit.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Right he only was known in taking homosexuality out of the Bible thereby manipulating the book but ok...
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
Not sure what relevancy any of this has to the topic at hand.
It is my PG-13 way of saying the KJV is full of s***.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I find this FIRST appearance of Satan(devil) in the NT to be very interesting, - as he is doing his Tanakh Job of TESTING Jesus before he starts his ministry.
His first meeting with Jesus is as a tester/adversary, to make sure he is ready for his task.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led aside by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted/TESTED by the devil.
That “tempted” is actually “G3984- TESTED.”
Jesus passed, the tester left, and Jesus immediately started his ministry.
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