UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.

[Enoch07]

NO, - people were writing that after Jesus's death. Obviously Jesus couldn't do a fact check, and denial.

We do not know what Jesus, if he existed, actually said.

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Now that is just intellectual dishonesty.

So now nothing is valid without actually talking to the person face to face. Come on now.

 

[Ingledsva]

Pay close attention to John 8:44 "he was a murderer from the beginning" this is a reference to Genesis when the serpent (Satan) tempted Adam and Eve with the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

For context.

Genesis 2: 16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Here is the first lie Satan told.

Genesis 3:1-4

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Murder is that of Adam and Eve. Which caused Adam and Eve to lose their immortality. Effectively murdering them by causing them to be able to die.

Nowhere in Tanakh does it say the serpent is Satan.

It also says the Eden serpent is condemned to crawl forever on his belly = a real serpent. - Thus obviously NOT Satan.

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[Enoch07]

Body count. God's to be precise. Do I need to wave my hand in front of your face and make sure you're looking me in the eye before we continue?

Yes, and I keep asking for the evidence and you provide none. "The Bible" is not a valid answer. Can you imagine using something similar to defend yourself in court.

Prosecutor: "Sir where were you on the night in question?"

Defendant: "T.V."

LoLz

 

[Enoch07]

Nowhere in Tanakh does it say the serpent is Satan.

It also says the Eden serpent is condemned to crawl forever on his belly = a real serpent. - Thus obviously NOT Satan.

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So snakes talk in your world? Very interesting reality you have there.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yes, and I keep asking for the evidence and you provide none. "The Bible" is not a valid answer. Can you imagine using something similar to defend yourself in court.

Prosecutor: "Sir where were you on the night in question?"

Defendant: "T.V."

LoLz

And here we have what happens so often in discussion with theists... you try and use their own logic in discussion with them and they suddenly mistake you for the very thing you are arguing against.

I DON'T ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING. Well, I mean, I suppose it is evidence that, at some point, some people with wild ideas took pen to paper and started writing it all, but that's beside the point.

And perhaps I merely perpetrated the same misunderstanding that I am claiming here - you, as apparent "defender of the faith" in this thread, I expected to put some stock in The Bible. Are you saying you don't? interesting though, that I can quote you with:

Consider the source. Jesus is speaking in John 8:44.

Now someone can debate what Satan is or is not all day. I've got no problem with that.

But the Bible clearly says he is evil as shown in John 8:44. So this Professor doesn't know what he is talking about as far as the Bible not portraying Satan as evil.

You've obviously got some reverence for The Bible. So what do you make of the accounts of God having killed multitudes of people? Even targeting children if the text has it right? Or is your take that The Bible is not admissible as evidence of anything? If that's truly the case... then why ever quote it? If nothing can be accepted as fact from within its pages, then what is the point?

 

[Enoch07]

And here we have what happens so often in discussion with theists... you try and use their own logic in discussion with them and they suddenly mistake you for the very thing you are arguing against.

You said you had evidence. I only asked you to present it. If you can't then perhaps you should not speak.

 

[Ingledsva]

Now that is just intellectual dishonesty.

So now nothing is valid without actually talking to the person face to face. Come on now.

Since you are calling me "intellectually dishonest" you had damn well better come up with a valid reason for saying so!

There is absolutely NO autonomous evil Satan in Tanakh. That is a fact. He is a servant of YHVH - doing his job.

Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » The Jewish View of Satan

Christians claiming something, - especially after Jesus's death, - obviously does not make it true. It is a claim.

Christians have twisted a lot of Tanakh, - such as Lucifer in Isaiah. There is no Lucifer/Satan in Isaiah 14.

Or the so-called virgin birth in Isaiah, - which is actually a young woman - there at that time. Not some future event.

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[Enoch07]

Since you are calling me "intellectually dishonest" you had damn well better come up with a valid reason for saying so!

There is absolutely NO autonomous evil Satan in Tanakh. That is a fact. He is a servant of YHVH - doing his job.

Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » The Jewish View of Satan

Christians claiming something, - especially after Jesus's death, - obviously does not make it true. It is a claim.

Christians have twisted a lot of Tanakh, - such as Lucifer in Isaiah. There is no Lucifer/Satan in Isaiah 14.

Or the so-called virgin birth in Isaiah, - which is actually a young woman - there at that time. Not some future event.

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You are claiming that the serpent is a literal snake.

Snakes do not speak.

Case closed.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You said you had evidence. I only asked you to present it. If you can't then perhaps you should not speak.

And I asked you to answer to the question that needs an answer for me to determine if you will even accept the evidence. That question being: how much credence you give to The Bible? Seems you don't want to answer - understandable, honestly.

If The Bible is counted as evidence of God's dealings with man (I mean, seriously... what other evidence is there? Hint: here's where that ZERO figure you pulled out earlier might actually come in handy) then God has an EXTREMELY HIGH body count attributable to Him.

And again, if you don't believe The Bible carries any weight as evidence, then you are right. There is no need to discuss further. We are in agreement. God's body count is zero... because He doesn't exist.

 

[Ingledsva]

I so love the authoritarians speak on issues they have no idea about. This happens somewhat frequently. One would think that such people know what they speak of, yet, they seem to be idiots in the light of what scripture teaches.

I wonder why Jesus called him Lord of Flies. Wonder why the devil shall be hurled into the Lake of Fire by God's agents if he isn't evil.
Perhaps the professor is a satanist! It sure sounds like it.

You DON'T know that Jesus called him that.

All you have is a collection of writings written when Jesus was dead, - and couldn't challenge them.

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[Enoch07]

And I asked you to answer to the question that needs an answer for me to determine if you will even accept the evidence. That question being: how much credence you give to The Bible? Seems you don't want to answer - understandable, honestly.

If The Bible is counted as evidence of God's dealings with man (I mean, seriously... what other evidence is there? Hint: here's where that ZERO figure you pulled out earlier might actually come in handy) then God has an EXTREMELY HIGH body count attributable to Him.

And again, if you don't believe The Bible carries any weight as evidence, then you are right. There is no need to discuss further. We are in agreement. God's body count is zero... because He doesn't exist.

Evidence - Wikipedia

You are making the assertion that God is a murderer. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. Provide evidence of your assertion or drop your assertion.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

I wonder why Jesus called him Lord of Flies. .

Jesus did not use the name Beelzebul. The Pharisees did. This name of a moldy old Philistine god was used by Jews to indicate a major demon. Jesus refers to him as Satan. A definite article is used indicating a definite thing being called Satan and not the literal generic meaning of 'adversary'. Jesus calls Satan a major demon.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Evidence - Wikipedia

You are making the assertion that God is a murderer. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. Provide evidence of your assertion or drop your assertion.

Do you accept The Bible as evidence?
Or is this something you do/don't-do as it conveniences you?

Based on the posts you have displayed thus far in this thread and the curt, stand-offish stance you are trying to take with me on this topic, I am going to assume the latter - unless you are actually willing to answer the question? Eh? How about it man... come on... it's just a simple question, after all. Come on! You got this! It's the very first line of my writing in this post. Just 7 little words and a question mark.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

You DON'T know that Jesus called him that.

All you have is a collection of writings written when Jesus was dead, - and couldn't challenge them.

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So what? The subject is what is said in the Bible, not what may or may not have happened that way.

 

[Ingledsva]

You are claiming that the serpent is a literal snake.

Snakes do not speak.

Case closed.

LOL! Not a member of the religions' of Abraham.

To me it is ALL nonsense. Evil Lucifers/Satans don't exist either! LOL!

We are discussing what Tanakh says, - not what I believe.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the (nachash) serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

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[Rough Beast Sloucher]

Ingledsva

If it is all nonsense to you, why are you on this thread?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

In the story, God compensates everything, even though all the evil acts came from Satan.

Did the dead people feel compensated?

I don’t think that is said in the Bible.

You disagree that God told Satan what parameters could be used in the unwarranted attacks?

Do you really think that all who are murdered, are murdered because they are evil and sin?

I was responding to a poster who used the "logic" that if Satan is punished, it must be because he's evil. It's a curious attitude for a member of a religion dedicated to someone who supposedly was killed wrongly.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

I was responding to a poster who used the "logic" that if Satan is punished, it must be because he's evil. It's a curious attitude for a member of a religion dedicated to someone who supposedly was killed wrongly.

In that religion, Jesus died intentionally and came back again. It was not a punishment. Satan gets thrown into the fire forever. Punishment.

 

[Enoch07]

Do you accept The Bible as evidence?
Or is this something you do/don't-do as it conveniences you?

Based on the posts you have displayed thus far in this thread and the curt, stand-offish stance you are trying to take with me on this topic, I am going to assume the latter - unless you are actually willing to answer the question? Eh? How about it man... come on... it's just a simple question, after all. Come on! You got this! It's the very first line of my writing in this post. Just 7 little words and a question mark.

It's not about what I accept as evidence or not.

I am questioning what you consider evidence. Because typically as you admitted you don't consider it as evidence. But all the sudden you want to use it as evidence. This is intellectually dishonest. Either you accept it as evidence or you do not. If you do, then present it.

 

[Ingledsva]

So what? The subject is what is said in the Bible, not what may or may not have happened that way.

No, - Satan is from Tanakh. What Jewish scholars say about their Satan is thus correct about that character.

Later additions are just that, additions.

Christianity mistranslates/misquotes a lot of Tanakh texts, - and then just runs with them.

ALL NT texts were written after Jesus was dead. Thus no proof he said anything in it.

You can say, - "the NT says this." That is fine.

Where you get into trouble is when you erroneously take from another religious text and claim your ideas about it are right, and the Jewish scholars and Rabbis are wrong.

Christians are trying to use Tanakh Genesis accounts of a NACHASH/serpent, and claim it is actually Satan, and then add on the idea that this serpent-now-Satan is also autonomous and evil. Tanakh does NOT say that.

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