UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you have evidence to support your theory?

Yes -- the silence in the other 3 Gospels on these sayings of Jesus. That they appear to you so important suggests that Mathew, Mark and Luke might well have thought the same -- yet, sadly, they don't mention it at all.

My conclusions? It didn't happen, or they weren't there, or they didn't believe it, or they didn't think it important.

 

[Enoch07]

Yes -- the silence in the other 3 Gospels on these sayings of Jesus. That they appear to you so important suggests that Mathew, Mark and Luke might well have thought the same -- yet, sadly, they don't mention it at all.

My conclusions? It didn't happen, or they weren't there, or they didn't believe it, or they didn't think it important.

Yet Revelations holds no weight with a direct reference?

Revelations 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I mean you can't be any more clear than that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No, your reading in between the lines and deciphering meaning that is not there. Which is why I responded the way I did.

That is nonsensical as it gets. How did you arrive at this conclusion? LoLz

Sorry, but what I wrote is written from personal experience, from a sound knowledge of philosophical writing, and more. The "conclusion" that you are trying to deride is my statement that many people (including me, by the way, and a list of minds greater than yours too long for you to comprehend) do not see the words of the Bible as the inerrant, perfect word of god. That's what I said. What I said is true. If true (in your religion) is "nonsensical," then you yourself should be able to see where you are headed.

Oh, and by the way, you did not even bother trying to describe my "meaning" and which of your lines I was "reading between." Nor did you actually talk about the "conclusion" with which you disagree or question. How can I reasonably think you have any idea what you/re talking about?

Just so you understand, arguments of this sort generally require that we address each other's points, and answer them in context and with reference to what was actually said.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yet Revelations holds no weight with a direct reference?

Revelations 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I mean you can't be any more clear than that.

You're right! You can't be any more clear than that. Now just prove that it was written by God, and not some human (perhaps John of Patmos?) who was having a fine day-dream or nightmare. Explain to us all how this "Satan" who does all this manages to fit with the Satan mentioned in Job -- for the Bible is, after all, one book, one topic, one subject-matter.

And the answer, before you bother going to all the bluster, is you couldn't. You're fixated on a tiny part of the Bible -- and willing to ignore all the rest, as if God himself was some kind of twit for bothering to write all that other crap you can/t even be bothered looking at. And you think you "know something?" I would suggest you look a little deeper, and think again.

 

[Enoch07]

're right! You can't be any more clear than that.

Thanks, that settles the argument then. The Professor is incorrect, for whatever reason. I don't care really which you pick one. I'll share the love.

Now just prove that it was written by God, and not some human (perhaps John of Patmos?)

Non-sequitur, this has nothing to do with the argument.

The argument is not about who wrote the bible.

The argument is about whether the Bible actually shows Satan to be evil or not. There are many many verses conveying this, Genesis, Job, John, etc. Revelations 12:9 is the most clear because it even references Satan as the serpent from Genesis wrapping the whole deal up with a nice bow on top of it. So the dispute is settled. I look forward to your apology.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And, I see a way out of the problems facing us, global warming, the destruction of our habitat, of animal habitats, of an end to the tyrannical rule we see in democracy in many places not to forget other kinds of rulership, a way out of the awful individual inevitable consequences of a very few decades of life filled with hardship and illness, with a final few years of extreme trouble.

Each to his own.

Even if I believed that was really a 'way out' instead of just passing the buck to future generations, a bribe of any magnitude would be just as ineffectual at swaying me as a threat. Handwaving away the problems I see with behavior of the god of the bible with 'well at least you get a cushy afterlife' seems even dirtier to me than 'well at least you won't get tortured/destroyed.'

But yes. To each his own.

 

[Grandliseur]

well at least you get a cushy afterlife'

I do not believe in any afterlife. The Bible's message is quite clear that death is total destruction, the return to the not being. Thus, most people are promised a recreation, or as we know it, a resurrection into Paradise on an earth under one government with Christ as ruler.

This is why God is going to be quite strict and that Paradise is not going to be Paradise to all. When God needs to protect the earth from rape, the poor from exploitation, etc. - many hogs, the mega rich, will be quite unhappy in Paradise. Since God is going to protect those who cannot protect themselves, no more illicit sex leading to single parent families where in so many cases even small children are killed under a variety of circumstances from this kind of morality.

So, once God cleans up, he cleans up - and, I want to be on the side not swept away. You can be on any side you want. It is not my problem what others do. People who oppose God remind me of someone who stands next to a super-volcano and screams at it, 'I do not want you to erupt and destroy my life.' Fine with me, but I am getting out of the way of that super-volcano before it erupts. Each to his own.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I do not believe in any afterlife. The Bible's message is quite clear that death is total destruction, the return to the not being. Thus, most people are promised a recreation, or as we know it, a resurrection into Paradise on an earth under one government with Christ as ruler.

This is why God is going to be quite strict and that Paradise is not going to be Paradise to all. When God needs to protect the earth from rape, the poor from exploitation, etc. - many hogs, the mega rich, will be quite unhappy in Paradise. Since God is going to protect those who cannot protect themselves, no more illicit sex leading to single parent families where in so many cases even small children are killed under a variety of circumstances from this kind of morality.

So, once God cleans up, he cleans up - and, I want to be on the side not swept away. You can be on any side you want. It is not my problem what others do. People who oppose God remind me of someone who stands next to a super-volcano and screams at it, 'I do not want you to erupt and destroy my life.' Fine with me, but I am getting out of the way of that super-volcano before it erupts. Each to his own.

I am familiar with JW belief, but I'd still call it an afterlife just as I'd still call reincarnation an afterlife. An after-this-lifetime.

To me it's more like someone with a gun to your head saying you need to do what I say or you'll get shot. I might get shot, but I'm not going to compromise my principals just to please the one with the gun. I will question their motive and consequence regardless of how much power they have, because I don't believe might makes right.

 

[12jtartar]

UCLA research professor Henry A Kelly
after a 40 year study.

2006 University article.........

What the Devil? Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Author of New Satan ‘Biography’

Satan is not actually evil and is misunderstood.

When a person thinks about it, there's really not any evidence in the Bible that indicates Satan as actually being evil.

Thoughts or comments?

Nowhere Man,
Just what, in your mind constitutes evil???
To start, do you call think that calling The Almighty God a lier is evil, Genesis 3:1-6. Was it evil to deceive Eve, and cause the death of all men? Genesis 2:17, 3:14,15,17-19, Hebrews 2:10-15.
What about Job?? Was it evil of Satan to try to turn Job against the only true God, there fore trying to show that all men would turn against God if their life was at stake? Job 2:1-10.
Is it evil to blind the minds of people so that they cannot understand God’s word, and live forever???2Corinthians 4:3,4.
Was it evil for Satan to try to turn God’s son, Jesus away from his Father??? Matthew 4:1-10.
Was it evil to engage in war with the Archangel, Michael???
Revelation12:7-9, and try to cause the death of all men???
??Revelation 12:10-12.
If you do not believe that Satan is evil, for sure you have been blinded by the Satan ***mod edit***, 2Timothy 2:24-26, 2Corinthians 4:3,4.

 

[Grandliseur]

I am familiar with JW belief, but I'd still call it an afterlife just as I'd still call reincarnation an afterlife. An after-this-lifetime.

To me it's more like someone with a gun to your head saying you need to do what I say or you'll get shot. I might get shot, but I'm not going to compromise my principals just to please the one with the gun. I will question their motive and consequence regardless of how much power they have, because I don't believe might makes right.

Not with that church. Some of their teachings I agree with, others not.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I doubt that. You admit you don't believe the Bible to be evidence then want to use it as evidence to make an argument. That is intellectually dishonest. No matter how you try to justify it.

Okay, fine. I'll phrase the question a different way to get to the same result. A question I am willing to bet you still won't answer.

Based on the text found in The Bible, do you believe that it states that God is directly responsible for the deaths of any human beings?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I exposed how you was being dishonest. You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, and now your trying to cover up for it. Tsk tsk.

I insist that there was no cookie jar. You wouldn't even answer the question I posed... dodged it like you thought your life was at stake. And you used the "intellectual dishonesty" schtick to do part of the dodging. It really was an extremely simple question. If you feel it wouldn't have shed any light on the situation for you, fine. but please see my most recent, rephrased question (see one post above this one) - a question in which you cannot claim any "intellectual dishonesty" is occurring, and which basically gets us to the same ends. So, how about it... answer one simple question? Or dodge your heart out yet again?

 

[Akivah]

So snakes talk in your world? Very interesting reality you have there.

This is the same world in which a woman is made from a man's rib.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Just what, in your mind constitutes evil???

Harming for no good reason.

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

To start, do you call think that calling The Almighty God a lier is evil

He may not have lied but He was withholding the real reason He didn't want them to eat the fruit. It was about hoarding power, not about them dying from fruit.

Was it evil to deceive Eve

God deceived by being less than honest. The serpent was the only honest one there.

Was it evil of Satan to try to turn Job against the only true God

The Book of Job isn't about Job. Job is the just the McGuffin. The story is about determining if God can be unjust. The answer is "yes". Satan doesn't even have to break a sweat convincing God to smite someone who doesn't deserve it. On multiple occasions. With increasing severity. It is the heavenly near equivalent to the Milgram obedience experiment.

Is it evil to blind the minds of people so that they cannot understand God’s word, and live forever

Who sowed confusion first? God was less than honest in Eden, confused languages in "Babel", stopped hanging out with us personally, etc. God is portrayed by the bible as an incompetent, negligent, petty, and abusive tyrant. He'd be Dragon Ball Super's Xenosama, doing things just because He can, not because He should.

Was it evil for Satan to try to turn God’s son, Jesus away from his Father

Faith without testing is worthless. Or do you believe faith should be rewarded with "cheat codes" where reality doesn't apply to you?

Was it evil to engage in war with the Archangel, Michael

How did this even happen in Heaven? It is said we will be rewarded in a place with no WAR, no death, etc. Clearly, it's a lie if the War in Heaven story is to be believed as well.

Revelation12:7-9, and try to cause the death of all men?

None of us are immortal. Don't blame Satan for your biological clock.

If you do not believe that Satan is evil, for sure you have been blinded by the Satan

Or maybe some of us just realized that Satan was unfairly "demonized". To condemn someone with little more than unsupported claims is evil, no?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Nowhere Man,
Just what, in your mind constitutes evil???
To start, do you call think that calling The Almighty God a lier is evil, Genesis 3:1-6. Was it evil to deceive Eve, and cause the death of all men? Genesis 2:17, 3:14,15,17-19, Hebrews 2:10-15.
What about Job?? Was it evil of Satan to try to turn Job against the only true God, there fore trying to show that all men would turn against God if their life was at stake? Job 2:1-10.
Is it evil to blind the minds of people so that they cannot understand God’s word, and live forever???2Corinthians 4:3,4.
Was it evil for Satan to try to turn God’s son, Jesus away from his Father??? Matthew 4:1-10.
Was it evil to engage in war with the Archangel, Michael???
Revelation12:7-9, and try to cause the death of all men???
??Revelation 12:10-12.
If you do not believe that Satan is evil, for sure you have been blinded by the Satan ***mod edit***, 2Timothy 2:24-26, 2Corinthians 4:3,4.

There's nothing in the Bible story line that show Satan as being directly responsible.

All of this was done through God's approval and sanction. In that light, Is it considered by Christians as evil if God gives permission?

If you look closely, you'll see Satan is for the far greater part pretty benevolent throughout the written Testaments which can be easily tallied and compared with God side by side as solid proof by the Bible's own narratives.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, try an experiment and switch around God's name and Satan's name in the Old and New Testaments and give it a read.........

It's pretty amazing when you notice there exists a fatal attraction towards a narrative describing an Incredibly malicious and murderous God that is somehow for unknown reasons passed off as righteous and good for which people willingly follow. Any of Gods acts described the Old Testament are ignored and put out of mind as if God had never sanctioned extreme acts of brutality and genocide to men, women, and children, and animals. Christians don't like to address that and they eagerly sweep it under the rug saying that God isn't responsible when a narrative states otherwise. To me, that's a perfect example of delusion and deception to the letter.

Alternatively, I don't recall reading anywhere In the passages of the Holy Bible for which Satan did anything that is even on par with the immensity and scale by which God has been described as doing throughout the biblical stories.

In fact, there's hardly written anything at all about Satan which indicates a huge vacant gap in the Bible storyline as Satan is such a centralized and key figure, it's mystifying why more isn't said about Satan's history and background.
Sure there's accusations, but where is the history of things Satan has done that warrants the types of accusations that are levied? Where is the full story of Satan?
It's just not there, it's clearly gone.

 

[Enoch07]

Okay, fine. I'll phrase the question a different way to get to the same result. A question I am willing to bet you still won't answer.

Based on the text found in The Bible, do you believe that it states that God is directly responsible for the deaths of any human beings?

I am not playing your game.

You made an assertion. Provide evidence to back up that assertion or drop the assertion.

 

[Enoch07]

I insist that there was no cookie jar. You wouldn't even answer the question I posed... dodged it like you thought your life was at stake. And you used the "intellectual dishonesty" schtick to do part of the dodging. It really was an extremely simple question. If you feel it wouldn't have shed any light on the situation for you, fine. but please see my most recent, rephrased question (see one post above this one) - a question in which you cannot claim any "intellectual dishonesty" is occurring, and which basically gets us to the same ends. So, how about it... answer one simple question? Or dodge your heart out yet again?

See post #156

Thanks

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I am not playing your game.

Your choice. However realize that I would have answered any question on the topic you could have come at me with.

You made an assertion. Provide evidence to back up that assertion or drop the assertion.

In the end, was I really doing anything more than asking for a reply to a question? Sure, that reply may have made you admit something uncomfortable, and sure you may not have liked where the conversation was going... but at the very end there, it became about nothing more than asking a question and trying to get an answer.

How about this... were there no connotation to attempt to support the assertion that "God has a greater than zero body count He is responsible for", would you have answered the question even then? At least realize for yourself why you are truly trying to paint me out to be some kind of persecutor here. At least realize why the question makes you so uncomfortable... no one is saying you don't have good reason to be.

 

[Enoch07]

At least realize why the question makes you so uncomfortable... no one is saying you don't have good reason to be.

You give yourself too much credit.

Cheers!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You give yourself too much credit.

Cheers!

Cheers!