UK EU Referendum - Stay in or leave?

[Altfish]

You keep ignoring half of what I actually say. I gave reasons for my conclusions about your knowledge, but you ignored these. No one who understood the EU and its history would dismiss talk of federalism as a mere scare phrase. Do you have any proper response to the points in my last post?

I do recall you are a sympathiser with IRA terrorism, so I hardly think you are the usual undecided voter.

You are going back over 60-years (before even I was born) referring to The Action Committee for a United States of Europe, things have moved on.

Federalism is a system of government in which entities states to share power with a national government. The United States government functions according to the principles of federalism. The U.S. political system evolved from the philosophy of federalism.

One of the reason I currently think that we are better staying in is the likes of Toyota and Nissan. If we were not in the EU would similar companies decide to come to the UK in the future?
The UK is not part of the Euro and is unlikely to ever be. We are not part of the Schengen area. Why do you think we need to join 'big projects' that we don't agree with?
There is much wrong with the EU, I disagree with many things but so do I disagree with much that the UK does. My thinking is that we are better on the inside helping make the rules than not be a member and still having to comply with those rules if we want to trade with EU countries.

So, to win your argument you then try the ad hominem tact. About IRA terrorism I said (IIRC) something like I understand why they are doing it, I totally disagree with their methods. To be patriotic doesn't mean you agree with everything your country does. I don't agree with the way we treated the Irish in the early 20th Century. I don't agree with slavery, does that make me unpatriotic?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The choice is whether we wish to a province of a European superstate. I see no need. Personally, I'd rather be an independent small power than subject to a United States of Europe.

Be a 'small power' ?
How small would you like it?

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

You are going back over 60-years (before even I was born) referring to The Action Committee for a United States of Europe, things have moved on.

Indeed, they have moved on. Ever closer union has been sought as part of the Monnet Method. You are familiar with the Monnet Method, right? The founders of the EU realised that if they broadcasted their desire for a United States of Europe too freely, it wasn't well liked among the nations of Europe. So they thought they'd not be so candid and instead piece meal, but no revocable, increases in the powers and unity of the EU.

What you are saying is that despite the fact that Monnet, Spaak, Spinelli, and other founders of the EU spoke openly about a suprastate; despite the fact they specifically chose a supergovernmental method of cooperation instead of intergovernmental; despite the fact that that many Eurocrats have constantly talked about the need for ever closer union and even federalism when they are really open; despite the fact that the EU has sought ever closer union to the point where it has control using qualified majority voting over vast areas, from culture to law, and its Committee of Permanent Representatives originates more laws and regulations for us than parliament, it is foolish to talk of federalism and a United States of Europe? I think any fair minded person who saw this evidence would at least investigate it. He wouldn't dismiss it.

Federalism is a system of government in which entities states to share power with a national government. The United States government functions according to the principles of federalism. The U.S. political system evolved from the philosophy of federalism.

Thanks for the civic lesson, but the point is that federalism is for nations. It would have no role in Europe unless Europe were becoming at least a quasi-suprastate.

One of the reason I currently think that we are better staying in is the likes of Toyota and Nissan. If we were not in the EU would similar companies decide to come to the UK in the future?
The UK is not part of the Euro and is unlikely to ever be. We are not part of the Schengen area. Why do you think we need to join 'big projects' that we don't agree with?
There is much wrong with the EU, I disagree with many things but so do I disagree with much that the UK does. My thinking is that we are better on the inside helping make the rules than not be a member and still having to comply with those rules if we want to trade with EU countries.

Britain will eventually be part of the Euro if we remain in and the EU doesn't implode. The whole point of the EU and the Monnet Method is to seek ever closer union to the point of statehood. Britain cannot remain on the sidelines for ever. Is there any reason to think the EU has changed in recent years? The LIsbon Treaty, the EU constitution by another name, was passed not too long ago. Just a few weeks ago Juncker, an ardent unifier, if not federalist, was ordering sovereign nations to take refugees and their was talk of quotas for refugees. Only the fact of the resurgence of national feelings around Europe prevented this.

The economic benefits you talk about seem pretty paltry compared to more than thousand years of independent history and identity.

So, to win your argument you then try the ad hominem tact. About IRA terrorism I said (IIRC) something like I understand why they are doing it, I totally disagree with their methods. To be patriotic doesn't mean you agree with everything your country does. I don't agree with the way we treated the Irish in the early 20th Century. I don't agree with slavery, does that make me unpatriotic?

When discussing your patriotism I think such history relevant. I seem to remember you did more than just express understanding for why they did it. But I don't see the need to labour the point, if you now say that is all you meant.

 

[Altfish]

Your memory isn't as good as you think.

However, you are obviously correct and if you get your message across correctly it will be 100% Brexit.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Your memory isn't as good as you think.

However, you are obviously correct and if you get your message across correctly it will be 100% Brexit.

I'll leave it at that.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. But okay.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

We should leave. The EU is a large bureaucratic undemocratic mess that strips away Britain's sovereignty over her own borders and laws.

I believe at least in the long run it will certainly be good for Britain to be an independent country again and settle her own affairs.

The deal is very much insufficient, but I suspect politicians could do a good job of spinning it into a good deal and persuading people to stay in with the usual scaremongering.

If Britain leaves, that poses a serious threat to the continued existence of the EU, which is great. The eurosceptics are already doing well in France, with Britain gone there will be a big surge in euroscepticism across Europe, I don't believe the EU will be able to stay together.

I don't know much about European politics, but when did Britain lose a war against any European country? Didn't they kick Germany, France, Spain's butts pretty decisively? for what?

Seems like Britain should be calling the shots there- at least getting the French to stop being cruel to geese..

 

[Ultimatum]

One of the reason I currently think that we are better staying in is the likes of Toyota and Nissan. If we were not in the EU would similar companies decide to come to the UK in the future?

The Market Fallacy, thus, comes to the fore.

My thinking is that we are better on the inside helping make the rules than not be a member and still having to comply with those rules if we want to trade with EU countries.

"Those rules" only include ~21% of EU law, but good try.

 

[Altfish]

Why is it that the Brexit people on here are so certain they are right; yet the others are still to be convinced either way.

The trouble is that the certainty of the Brexit people (based on little actual evidence) is convincing the likes of me that the Stay option is correct.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why is it that the Brexit people on here are so certain they are right; yet the others are still to be convinced either way.

The trouble is that the certainty of the Brexit people (based on little actual evidence) is convincing the likes of me that the Stay option is correct.

I won't lie that my own sense of patriotism comes into play. It's not just a cold logical decision. I want my country to be independent, to not be subservient to some continental imperial bureaucracy, I do not believe after everything the country has been through it should so willingly place itself under the shackles of another world power. If the evidence said that in the short-term Britain would be worse off (which I don't think it would), I would still support leaving. Freedom sometimes can hurt, but not for long. A prisoner who escapes his cell may find it difficult to return to independent living, but I believe it is a worthy price for freedom.

I can assure you that you will also find people in the "In" campaign who are ardent federalists, who no matter what the facts say believe Europe must become more and more integrated until finally it is a one-nation paradise, with the concept of nation-states destroyed and one huge European government remaining, a United States of Europe.

Oh, and think "United States of Europe" is exaggerating? The current Italian PM said he'd use its six-month presidency of the EU to push for exactly that. There are many idealistic ardent federalists, in high places too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Europe#Matteo_Renzi

 

[Yerda]

Why is it that the Brexit people on here are so certain they are right; yet the others are still to be convinced either way.

I'd say I'm now slightly in favour of leaving the EU, but I'm definitely not certain.

 

[Altfish]

I won't lie that my own sense of patriotism comes into play. It's not just a cold logical decision. I want my country to be independent, to not be subservient to some continental imperial bureaucracy, I do not believe after everything the country has been through it should so willingly place itself under the shackles of another world power. If the evidence said that in the short-term Britain would be worse off (which I don't think it would), I would still support leaving. Freedom sometimes can hurt, but not for long. A prisoner who escapes his cell may find it difficult to return to independent living, but I believe it is a worthy price for freedom.

I can assure you that you will also find people in the "In" campaign who are ardent federalists, who no matter what the facts say believe Europe must become more and more integrated until finally it is a one-nation paradise, with the concept of nation-states destroyed and one huge European government remaining, a United States of Europe.

Oh, and think "United States of Europe" is exaggerating? The current Italian PM said he'd use its six-month presidency of the EU to push for exactly that. There are many idealistic ardent federalists, in high places too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Europe#Matteo_Renzi

It is the use of words like Freedom, Patriotism, etc. that Brexit fans flourish their posts with.
Although not directly saying it they insinuate that anyone voting to stay in is Unpatriotic or doesn't want Freedom.
I don't understand why Federalism is such a negative word to Brexit supporters.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It is the use of words like Freedom, Patriotism, etc. that Brexit fans flourish their posts with.
Although not directly saying it they insinuate that anyone voting to stay in is Unpatriotic or doesn't want Freedom.
I don't understand why Federalism is such a negative word to Brexit supporters.

I said 'my own sense of patriotism', didn't I? I don't want to insinuate such a thing, I am giving you my own convictions.

Federalism is a negative word because it is effectively the end of the nation-state. I don't want Britain to become the island province of the European supercontinent, with our laws decided on the mainland.

 

[Altfish]

I said 'my own sense of patriotism', didn't I? I don't want to insinuate such a thing, I am giving you my own convictions.

Federalism is a negative word because it is effectively the end of the nation-state. I don't want Britain to become the island province of the European supercontinent, with our laws decided on the mainland.

You may not wish to insinuate but by stating it as you do you are saying just that.
Perhaps because I live in the northern wastelands of our country I think I am already in a Federal state run by Tories in the south.

 

[Ultimatum]

Why is it that the Brexit people on here are so certain they are right;

I don't think I'm "right", as such--as this is a political decision. Thus, as a soft theoretical science, there is no "right" or "wrong" option. But there are extrapolations to be made from the options.

yet the others are still to be convinced either way.

Some are still to be convinced about North Korea not being a socialist paradise. Does that mean some cannot be certain that it isn't?

(based on little actual evidence)

Perhaps because you look at the likes of the Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage--maybe even the Daily Mail--instead of actually finding the evidence either from
a) yourself
b) intense analysis from others

I'd say I'm now slightly in favour of leaving the EU, but I'm definitely not certain.

))))

 

[illykitty]

Can't say any patriotic type of argument is convincing at all. I'm not afraid to admit that I am not patriotic at all, about my country of origin nor of where I live.

Being proud of some abstract lines which humans have drawn on the map and fought over, and you were by chance born into (you don't chose where you're born) makes no logical sense to me.

 

[Altfish]

Perhaps because you look at the likes of the Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage--maybe even the Daily Mail--instead of actually finding the evidence either from
a) yourself
b) intense analysis from others

And where do you expect people to go for this evidence?
Evidence that is balanced and aimed at lay people.
'Intense analysis' - that's a strange phrase

 

[muhammad_isa]

Can't say any patriotic type of argument is convincing at all. I'm not afraid to admit that I am not patriotic at all, about my country of origin nor of where I live.

I wouldn't say that I wasn't patriotic, but I'm very suspicious of extreme nationalism. I didn't live through the last world war, but it's very clear to me that it's highly undesirable.

When it comes to practicalities, however, I understand why the likes of Iain Duncan Smith might be in favour of leaving EU. He sees first hand what is happening to the youth in the UK .. they're being sqeezed by welfare reforms and mass immigration.
Something has to give! Oh .. he's resigned

 

[Ultimatum]

And where do you expect people to go for this evidence?

Quite bluntly:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012E/TXT

For lay people:
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85974

Intense analysis:
http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/greatdeception.pdf

 

[Altfish]

Quite bluntly:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:12012E/TXT

For lay people:
http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85974

Intense analysis:
http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/greatdeception.pdf

I said evidence that is balanced...I just looked at the blog which you recommend for lay people and the first paragraphs I read say...

"After much labour, we have finally produced the Flexcit pamphlet. It is available as a free download from this link, or the permanent link on the sidebar. If you want hard copy, it can be ordered from the Bruges Group for £5.00 including p&p.
The pamphlet summarises in 48 A-5 pages the online book which has now had in excess of 50,000 downloads. It sets out how the UK can leave the European Union and is intended to show that an orderly exit is plausible and practical, and can be largely risk-free. "

Balanced, I think not.

 

[Jake1001]

All decisions these days are based on short term thinking. If it makes sense to join today, we join. Tomorrow we might feel like dropping out. A large price is paid for short term thinking.