Ultimate truth

[Willamena]

My tagline should tell you everything you need to know about my thoughts on this matter. It reads, "Truth isn't a thing."

Truth is a relationship...a relationship between what is and what is perceived or thought to be. Thus, because there is an infinite number of "what is," and (so far as I can tell) an even larger number of what is perceived or thought, then there are an infinite number of truths and a larger infinite number of non-truths.

Having said all of that, I really think that what you are asking, and many people seem to be asking, is something along the line of "what is the ultimate answer to the nature of what is." And since that question is going to remain permanently unanswerable by any of us who are part of "what is," it's not a question that makes any real sense.

You know that "nots" aren't a thing, right? (i.e. "non") They are another relation. I mostly agree with this, except to give life to "nots."

 

[Aupmanyav]

And since that question is going to remain permanently unanswerable by any of us who are part of "what is," it's not a question that makes any real sense.

You are a prophet. You know future. If all people thought like this, men could not have reached the moon. Science is working on it. See what Salixincendium wrote in his post #76.

Yeah. But conjuring can happen with knowledge or due to lack of knowledge.

Agree. It can happen without knowledge. It can also happen with knowledge either in trying to benefit people or in trying to deceive people.

 

[Willamena]

Doesn't impermanence apply to everything?

Even nihilism.

 

[dybmh]

And even if it is to be obliteration, why are Abrahamics so afraid of it? Why is one life not enough? East does not fear it.

I don't think that fearing death is a result of the Abrahamic beliefs. I think it's a natural human reaction.

However, I think the fact that "East does not fear it." Is an excellent point to make responding to @The Reverend Bob.

Nihilism denies that life has meaningful aspects. To a Nihilist everything is equally meaningless.
Buddhism teaches that virtuous deeds and harmful deeds have meaning. Suffering has meaning. But fear of death is meaningless.

 

[dybmh]

Doesn't impermanence apply to everything?

Even nihilism.

The past is permanent. What happened, has happened. Nothing changes it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The past is permanent. What happened, has happened. Nothing changes it.

Tell that to Marty McFly!

Seriously, though. If the now is illusory and mutable, doesn't it make sense that the past could be mutable as well. Think the Mandela Effect.

Salix,
One of those loonies that remembers him dying in prison in the 1980's

 

[dybmh]

Tell that to Marty McFly!

Seriously, though. If the now is illusory and mutable, doesn't it make sense that the past could be mutable as well. Think the Mandela Effect.

The Mandela Effect is like Schrodinger's cat? Even though perception and human imagination allow for the possibility of a mutable past, I don't think it is possible from inside the space-time construct.

Once the past has been altered it has always existed in the altered state from the perspective of those inside space-time.

 

[atanu]

In my experience, the latter is the norm.

Yes, certainly. Have you seen Shiva’s form? He holds a trident. It is said that the trident represents the three modes (guna — quality) of nature (mind). The three modes are: goodness, passion, and sloth-ignorance. It is said that Shiva, the Ishwara, has complete control of these three modes of mind.

In my understanding, all bhagavat class of beings are in the category who control nature-mAyA. And the rest of us are in the category who are controlled by nature-mAyA.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes, certainly. Have you seen Shiva’s form? He holds a trident. It is said that the trident represents the three modes (guna — quality) of nature (mind). The three modes are: goodness, passion, and sloth-ignorance. It is said that Shiva, the Ishwara, has complete control of these three modes of mind.

Yes...sattva, rajas, and tamas. I also see them as representative of the Trimurti, not necessarily Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva, but as their representations inherent in the three gunas...constructive/active/destructive. Then again, I've never been know for being a conventional thinker when it comes to symbolism.

In my understanding, all bhagavat class of beings are in the category who control nature-mAyA. And the rest of us are in the category who are controlled by nature-mAyA.

That's interesting. I've never really considered that.

I've been of the mindset that those that understand maya and their role within it are less controlled by it.

 

[dybmh]

Tell that to Marty McFly!

Seriously, though. If the now is illusory and mutable, doesn't it make sense that the past could be mutable as well. Think the Mandela Effect.

The Mandela Effect is like Schrodinger's cat? Even though perception and human imagination allow for the possibility of a mutable past, I don't think it is possible from inside the space-time construct.

Once the past has been altered it has always existed in the altered state from the perspective of those inside space-time.

Adding to this idea ( The past is permanent ):

In the case of alternate realities the past still doesn't change. Each alternate reality has its own permanent past.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Adding to this idea ( The past is permanent ):

In the case of alternate realities the past still doesn't change. Each alternate reality has its own permanent past.

You make valid points, assuming time itself is linear and not cyclic or random, or that everything isn't happening right now and our brain simply perceives it in a linear fashion...or that everything that we perceive is illusory to begin with.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I've been of the mindset that those that understand that understand maya and their role within it are less controlled by it.

Less controlled, in the sense that they understand the mechanics, ways of 'maya', otherwise they too need food, sleep, etc.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Less controlled, in the sense that they understand the mechanics, ways of 'maya', otherwise they too need food, sleep, etc.

One must play by certain 'rules' or dharma, if you will, if one wishes continued participation in maya.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm sure some do. I think it would be more accurate to say that all paths lead to a path to 'ultimate truth.'

It's interesting ... the diversity. For quite a few, there is no ultimate truth in their belief system. So I ponder how a path can lead to something that doesn't exist? The edge of the earth, and you fall off?

Even though the diversity is incredibly evident, people who are heavily programmed stick to their guns ... all same, all same. But that's what happens when you think your belief is right and all others are wrong. Why am I not surprised?

In my experience, there are paths that lead to a dead end...i.e. no 'ultimate truth.' If it is truth one seeks, one can turn around and walk to a point where another path diverged and walk that one. Or once can just stand idle at the dead end and say, "I found the end, so this must have been the correct path."



Indeed. I've walked paths that I thought were right, only to find that the path I was walking simply led me to another path.

My reply to this was a yes as no matter what path we chose in this life, we all face death in this life.

I see that death is a birth where we face the reality of who we are. I see we get to face the Ultimate Truth and what we face is the life we chose to live.

Regards Tony

 

[Martin]

An extension from another thread.
As per your faith, describe what you and/or your faith considers to be the ultimate truth?

I think "ultimate truth" is a fiction, like "ultimate reality" is a fiction. And of course religions don't agree about what it looks like. Talking about "observable truth" might be more productive.

 

[Aupmanyav]

One must play by certain 'rules' or dharma, if you will, if one wishes continued participation in maya.

'All rules' rather than 'certain'.

I see that death is a birth where we face the reality of who we are. I see we get to face the Ultimate Truth and what we face is the life we chose to live.

To expect anything after death is 'trishna', 'tanha' (Buddhist), thirst, longing, attachment; and pitiful like an old man hankering after sex or trying to chew bones. After death, it is assimilation in the elements.

"Yah akamah nishkamah aptakamah attakamah l na tasya prana utkramanti, Brahmaiva sambrahmapyeti ll"
The one who desires migrates, but the man who is without desires never migrates; of him who is without desires, who is free from desires, the objects of whose desire have been attained, and to whom all objects of desire are but the Self – being Brahman, he is merged in Brahman.
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

"The truth is - that deeds come from upādāna (clinging to existence), upādāna comes from trishna (craving), trishna comes from vedana (torture), the perception of pain and pleasure, the desire for rest; sensation (contact with objects) brings desire for life or the will to live."
Trishna (Vedic thought) - Wikipedia

"The Buddha identified three types of taṇhā:

Kāma-taṇhā (sensual pleasures craving): craving for sense objects which provide pleasant feeling, or craving for sensory pleasures. Walpola Rahula states that taṇhā includes not only desire for sense-pleasures, wealth and power, but also "desire for, and attachment to, ideas and ideals, views, opinions, theories, conceptions and beliefs (dhamma-taṇhā)."
Bhava-taṇhā (craving for being): craving to be something, to unite with an experience. This is ego-related, states Harvey, the seeking of certain identity and desire for certain type of rebirth eternally. Other scholars explain that this type of craving is driven by the wrong view of eternalism (eternal life) and about permanence.
Vibhava-taṇhā (craving for non-existence): craving to not experience unpleasant things in the current or future life, such as unpleasant people or situations."
Taṇhā - Wikipedia

 

[MonkeyFire]

That faith itself is the seal of life.

God can defend himself with equanimity and remain entirely passive.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God can defend himself with equanimity and remain entirely passive.

Should he, if he exists? That is the problem.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Should he, if he exists? That is the problem.

Maybe perfection may move outside of salvation but Uriel will still safe from her and thus he will remain.

 

[Martin]

The past is permanent. What happened, has happened. Nothing changes it.

But memories fade.