Understanding Cosmology (Post 7)

[Meow Mix]

I wonder if I can construct a really strange analogy using a cloud, but I don't know if it will help or confuse.

Imagine a universe existing in a box. There's a whole bunch of water vapor in the box, and the box has been expanding for some time.

At some point in the past, the box contained an opaque cloud. But as it expands and the water vapor becomes more diffuse.

If you are an ant in the center looking out, let's say that the speed of light in this ant's universe is really slow. Let's say that light moves at about a foot a year. So if you're the ant looking out, light that reaches you from a foot away was actually emitted from the universe 1 year ago: you're seeing what it looked like 1 year ago if you're looking at an object a foot away.

At a certain point, you're not going to be able to see any further because far enough away, you're going to see the universe as it was before it was diffuse (you're going to see a cloud). In reality, that cloud is long gone because it's now diffuse (its remnants are all around you as very diffuse water vapor now). But since looking out is looking back, if you look deep enough into the box, you'll see a cloud, and you won't be able to see past it because the cloud was opaque at that time and photons emitted during that time couldn't reach your detector. The photons only reach your detector after being scattered for the last time (at the "edge" of the cloud that you would see; which, again, no longer exists today, since you're seeing the universe in the box as it was, not as it is).

Hopefully that was at all helpful and not just so much word vomit. @JoshuaTree

 

[wellwisher]

The CMB is the result of the second law and the flow of heat from hot to cold, which is connected to the universal entropy increase.

If we start with matter, such as a hydrogen atom, hotter energy photons can excite the single electron of hydrogen atom to a higher energy level. Once excited, if we were to now use colder energy photons, since the single electron is already too high in energy, the hydrogen atom will become transparent to the cooler energy. Both hot and cool photons can flow in the same direction, but if hot hits first the cool will have no place to go but forward.

The hotter energy was absorbed and can be released, which we see as a signal from the matter. The cooler energy flows past that particular matter and does not create any indication that the matter was there. This cooler energy will continue to move onward, until it finds cooler matter that can be impacted at this lower energy photon. We may see this cooler energy reflected by the matter. Photons that are even cooler, will have no energy levels they can occupy in this particular matter, so they will pass through and not be seen. In the end, only the coolest energy is left beyond the matter. This is expected and what is seen. The hotter energy when reflected back from the matter can do so in all directions, so it linger with the matter. But the cooler is reflected less and less so it move more forward.

This simple analysis and the CMB tells me the universe is more or less homogeneous in terms of the types of matter it makes. If different galaxies made different type of exotic materials, with different energy levels, this would not appear so uniform.

Since the entropy of the universe has to increase, matter that can interact with the "hotter" photons of energy, will net alter the energy that is absorbed. Increasing entropy, by absorbing energy, would implying a net red shift at all wavelengths; red shift is net loss of energy value. Doppler shift is simply a special case of states of matter, with an increasing entropy change. It is type of internal cooling of energy; starts hotter and gets cooler due to built in inefficiencies. There is no perpetual motion even among matter at the nanoscale; heat loss.

When we look out at the universe, the second law, which implies a net loss of available energy; net red shift, also implies the universe is aging. This energy within entropy is conserved, but it is no longer readily available in a form that can be used by matter of the universe in any net way. We can reverse entropy on a smaller scale but not the total universe energy in any net way.

When photons from far away and long ago reach us, these came from a time of lower universal entropy and higher universal free energy; younger universe. This is where there is constant confusion. The objects in the night sky is like a scrapbook of pictures from the past, that once existed in time, but no longer exist, as is. A baby picture does not tell us much about the person of today, yet this is what everyone tries to do. That assumption is based on perpetual motion and not an aging universe due to the second law.

Like a baby picture, where the baby never left is how town, we try to place it on the other side of the earth so we can use perpetual motion. The only thing that is still with us is not the baby but a picture of that baby who never left their home town. While the energy signal is not the same as it was but has been modified by the second law; baby ages and time changes.

If you are a student good grades and advancement requires towing the company line, but perpetual motion is still not allowed.

 

[Meow Mix]

The CMB is the result of the second law and the flow of heat from hot to cold, which is connected to the universal entropy increase.

If we start with matter, such as a hydrogen atom, hotter energy photons can excite the single electron of hydrogen atom to a higher energy level. Once excited, if we were to now use colder energy photons, since the single electron is already too high in energy, the hydrogen atom will become transparent to the cooler energy. Both hot and cool photons can flow in the same direction, but if hot hits first the cool will have no place to go but forward.

The hotter energy was absorbed and can be released, which we see as a signal from the matter. The cooler energy flows past that particular matter and does not create any indication that the matter was there. This cooler energy will continue to move onward, until it finds cooler matter that can be impacted at this lower energy photon. We may see this cooler energy reflected by the matter. Photons that are even cooler, will have no energy levels they can occupy in this particular matter, so they will pass through and not be seen. In the end, only the coolest energy is left beyond the matter. This is expected and what is seen. The hotter energy when reflected back from the matter can do so in all directions, so it linger with the matter. But the cooler is reflected less and less so it move more forward.

This simple analysis and the CMB tells me the universe is more or less homogeneous in terms of the types of matter it makes. If different galaxies made different type of exotic materials, with different energy levels, this would not appear so uniform.

Since the entropy of the universe has to increase, matter that can interact with the "hotter" photons of energy, will net alter the energy that is absorbed. Increasing entropy, by absorbing energy, would implying a net red shift at all wavelengths; red shift is net loss of energy value. Doppler shift is simply a special case of states of matter, with an increasing entropy change. It is type of internal cooling of energy; starts hotter and gets cooler due to built in inefficiencies. There is no perpetual motion even among matter at the nanoscale; heat loss.

When we look out at the universe, the second law, which implies a net loss of available energy; net red shift, also implies the universe is aging. This energy within entropy is conserved, but it is no longer readily available in a form that can be used by matter of the universe in any net way. We can reverse entropy on a smaller scale but not the total universe energy in any net way.

When photons from far away and long ago reach us, these came from a time of lower universal entropy and higher universal free energy; younger universe. This is where there is constant confusion. The objects in the night sky is like a scrapbook of pictures from the past, that once existed in time, but no longer exist, as is. A baby picture does not tell us much about the person of today, yet this is what everyone tries to do. That assumption is based on perpetual motion and not an aging universe due to the second law.

Like a baby picture, where the baby never left is how town, we try to place it on the other side of the earth so we can use perpetual motion. The only thing that is still with us is not the baby but a picture of that baby who never left their home town. While the energy signal is not the same as it was but has been modified by the second law; baby ages and time changes.

If you are a student good grades and advancement requires towing the company line, but perpetual motion is still not allowed.

I'm not sure what you're responding to with some of this, such as the lines about perpetual motion (nobody has advocated perpetual motion) or towing a company line. That galaxies are quenching and not as they appear at high redshift has been touched on in the post series. Is this a response to my OP or to a post in this thread?

 

[Native]

Subject: Is there anything new at all?

It´s very interesting to read of how modern cosmologists are describing their ideas of the Universe and building up a linear time scale of everything, all "back to the CMB".

Did you know that our ancestors have some ideas of this "watery CMB substance" too? Terms like "Cosmic Ocean" and "Primordial Waters" are mentioned in several cultural descriptions in their Stories of Creation.

Quote from: The Egyptian Infinite Ogdoad - The Creation Pantheon of Ancient Egypt and Predecessor Gods of the Old Kingdom.

The Ogdoad, also called the Hehu or Infinites, were the celestial rulers of a cosmic age. Considered to have come long before the Egyptian religious system currently recognized, the Ogdoad were concerned with the preservation and flourishing of the celestial world, and later—as well as indirectly—the formation of the human race.

Though their power among the Egyptian people was most widely recognized between 2686 – 2134 BCE—in the Old Kingdom settlement of Hermopolis (so named by the Greeks as they equated Thoth with messenger god Hermes)—traces of their pantheon permeated down to the next set of gods, correlating the formation of the human race with the hands of the Ogdoad.

As stated above, the Ogdoad predate the more commonly known Egyptian gods, such as Osiris, his sister wife Isis, and the emissary of the underworld, Anubis. Considered to have come into creation before the world did.

The Ogdoad consist of four couples—eight individual deities—who balance one another and the nature of the cosmos. Each pair correlated with one of the primary elements of the universe in the Egyptian belief system, i.e., water, air, light, and time.

In the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt, it was believed that:

Nu and Naunet were responsible for the development and continued renewal of the primordial waters of the universe.
Amun and Amaunet were the care takers of air.
Kuk and Kauket were the harbingers of darkness.
Huh and Hauhet, the last pair, were weighted with the responsibility of maintaining eternity and infinity.

Each first name in these sets is the male avatar, while the second is the female, thereby creating an equal balance of genders as well".
---------------
As one can deduce from this, our ancestors had the Universe to be infinite and eternal with no beginning and no end, hence everything was in a cyclic proces of formation, dissolution (decaying) and re-formation.

I don´t think modern science can add anything else but speculative confusions compared with this genuine ancient intuitive and logical knowledge.

 

[wellwisher]

I wonder if I can construct a really strange analogy using a cloud, but I don't know if it will help or confuse.

Imagine a universe existing in a box. There's a whole bunch of water vapor in the box, and the box has been expanding for some time.

At some point in the past, the box contained an opaque cloud. But as it expands and the water vapor becomes more diffuse.

If you are an ant in the center looking out, let's say that the speed of light in this ant's universe is really slow. Let's say that light moves at about a foot a year. So if you're the ant looking out, light that reaches you from a foot away was actually emitted from the universe 1 year ago: you're seeing what it looked like 1 year ago if you're looking at an object a foot away.

At a certain point, you're not going to be able to see any further because far enough away, you're going to see the universe as it was before it was diffuse (you're going to see a cloud). In reality, that cloud is long gone because it's now diffuse (its remnants are all around you as very diffuse water vapor now). But since looking out is looking back, if you look deep enough into the box, you'll see a cloud, and you won't be able to see past it because the cloud was opaque at that time and photons emitted during that time couldn't reach your detector. The photons only reach your detector after being scattered for the last time (at the "edge" of the cloud that you would see; which, again, no longer exists today, since you're seeing the universe in the box as it was, not as it is).

Hopefully that was at all helpful and not just so much word vomit. @JoshuaTree

This works well in time, but not in both space and time. The earliest events of the BB were very small in size. We should not see these earliest events all around us, but rather the earliest events should remain small and localized in one hot spot. A black hole may contract its local space-time, but it remains a point of space to us.

On the other hand, a semi-opaque cloud between us and the source can absorb/emit and scatter light to make a small diameter signal appear much larger in space than it was it is own time. The analogy is driving a car at night in the fog. The fog will scatter the original focused light beam of the head light, with some of the scattered light reflected back to you. You will not see a duplicate reflection of the original head light beam, but something that is much larger in space than it originally was. The source will appear to be spread out in space, but not due to an expansion of space, but due to the scattering of light in the fog.

If we assume the universe is expanding and the light from the past was also scattering to create a magnification, it can appear to be expanding faster than it was in it own time. It is not only a space-time affect, but also has a second space vector due to scattering. A powerful light can make a large area of fog glow in all directions.

Say we start with the head light, and a solid opaque surface. We can get a more accurate reflection, but still it will be altered by the surface depending how it absorbs and reflects. As we go from opaque to semi-solid to semi-transparent to transparent, the reflected light will change due to the degree of scattering and the ratio is forward/reflected transmission.

 

[Heyo]

This works well in time, but not in both space and time. The earliest events of the BB were very small in size. We should not see these earliest events all around us, but rather the earliest events should remain small and localized in one hot spot.

Nope.
Once again: all light comes to us through time. Where-ever you look, you look at the singularity. It is "all around us". Imagine spacetime compressed to 3 dimensions, more exactly space reduced to two, in this case the surface of a ball (or globe). Imagine now standing on the "north pole" of that construct. To the south of you is the past. No matter in which direction you look, you are looking at the "south pole". (You can't see it because there is a "cloud" around it. The "cloud" is small but to you, it fills the sky.)

 

[thomas loebel]

Try god as curved space while the spirit of god is an O pen made as the same image within gods curved space that has us inside which causes relative state as gods curved space within us. the spirit of god is made in gods image then.."let us make man in our image" is us made in the O pen as sphere is world of thought as two sides must wed twice to be whole six relative to gods space as s-even [plural of six even] back to god. same place as SEE.

 

[Native]

Subject: How can an honest opinion offend readers?

Sabine Hossenfelder was asked by the American Physical Society - APS Physics - to give a honest opinion of modern physical science – but her article was rejected by the APS board for “maybe offending the APS readers”.

Sabine´s honest reply in this video:

Can Physics Be Too Speculative? An Honest Opinion -

Sabine; "I was asked to write an article addressing the question whether some research in physics has become too speculative. I did as I was asked, and all seemed fine, until someone on the editorial board of the magazine decided that physicists would be too upset about what I wrote.
The exact text of my opinion piece was too long to copy it here, so I put it up on my blog: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021...".

Video content:
0:00 Intro
1:05 Progressive or Degenerative?
3:23 Dark Matter
4:39 Fifth Forces
5:17 String Theory
6:22 Multiverses
6:55 Alien Technology
------------
IMO Sabine has several good analytic and critical points in her video and I don´t understand why some persons can feel offended when something in modern cosmology or astrophysics is honestly described and criticized.

 

[Heyo]

someone on the editorial board of the magazine

"Someone" may be too sensitive for others. I hope the scientific community wouldn't mind.

 

[Native]

Subject: "Intellectual Responsibility" – Some scientific food for thoughts . . .

By Michael Armstrong, Natural Philosopher.

Abstract:
“The word science means knowledge, but knowledge comes in two types: true and false.

Any scientific thinking that violates axiomatic on Metaphysical principles CANNOT be true.

For example, 'sequence' Is one of the most foundational aspects of reality and HAS to be Inviolate.

Violating sequence of events would destroy any sense or meaning to our experience on any and all levels, and would be simply unthinkable.”
------------

Take your time to watch this video . . .

 

[gnostic]

@Meow Mix

I wants to thank you on your very informative 7 Understanding Cosmology threads.

Most of us here are amateurs, including me in regards to astrophysics and cosmology. Some have better grasp of modern physics (eg @Polymath257, @Heyo, @exchemist , @TagliatelliMonster ) than others, so I am glad that you have returned to RF to explain what you can in layman-level as much as you can.

I am glad that you went through the Friedmann equations on the 1st series as much as you did, explaining how it meet with the observation and data. Not easy trying to understand the equations on my own.

I know that you cover a fair bit on Dark Matters and Dark Energy, but will there be another thread, eg to explain the inflationary model (in connection to the BB cosmology)?

 

[Meow Mix]

@Meow Mix

I wants to thank you on your very informative 7 Understanding Cosmology threads.

Most of us here are amateurs, including me in regards to astrophysics and cosmology. Some have better grasp of modern physics (eg @Polymath257, @Heyo, @exchemist , @TagliatelliMonster ) than others, so I am glad that you have returned to RF to explain what you can in layman-level as much as you can.

I am glad that you went through the Friedmann equations on the 1st series as much as you did, explaining how it meet with the observation and data. Not easy trying to understand the equations on my own.

I know that you cover a fair bit on Dark Matters and Dark Energy, but will there be another thread, eg to explain the inflationary model (in connection to the BB cosmology)?

I had considered it, but I've been busy since then with thesis stuff and some good, long-running conversations in other threads. I may come back and continue the series at some point. The initial idea was to give a framework for people arguing in the Science and Religion subforum because I saw so many people with questions about how this or that works, or how this or that is reasonably known, etc. BB cosmology and inflation is definitely among those categories.

Thank you for your kind words, too! <3

 

[Meow Mix]

@Debater Slayer if you get the chance can you add this one's link to Post 1? Pretty please?

 

[gnostic]

I had considered it, but I've been busy since then with thesis stuff and some good, long-running conversations in other threads. I may come back and continue the series at some point.

Oh, I'm sorry. I am not trying to push you or anything, but I recall in past threads, you said you would say more about cosmic inflation.

I know that you are busy with your studies, so take all the time you need. We can wait...we not going anywhere.

Again, thank you, for not only creating these topics, but also for returning to RF.

 

[Debater Slayer]

@Debater Slayer if you get the chance can you add this one's link to Post 1? Pretty please?

Done!