I think you are totally misunderstanding entropy
And what has entropy within this universe to do with how the universe came about?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Understanding Cosmology (Post 7)
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
I think you are totally misunderstanding entropy
And what has entropy within this universe to do with how the universe came about?
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The equation for the Gibbs Free Energy G, is G=H-TS, where H is enthalpy or internal energy, T is temperature and S is entropy.
The second law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. The second law implies that the universal Free Energy is decreasing, since the equation is written as minus TS. As S increases G gets smaller.
If entropy was to get lower, such as turning liquid water into ice, free energy can be given off; minus S. Entropy can be reversed on a small scale, such as freezing water, but the net total entropy of the universe has to increase according to the second law. This means free energy is being net bled off from the universe; universe is aging in an irreversible way.
Energy conservation implies that the free energy, within the increasing universal entropy is being conserved, but not in a way that is net reusable by the universe, due to the loss of free energy. We can reuse some of the energy within entropy, such as gravity causing a gas to be become liquid, but in the bigger universal picture the available free energy of the universe is decreasing with time. The universe cannot go back to step one, nor can it go on forever. The universe ages as it evolves bleeding off irreversible energy.
When we look out into space, the energy signals we see is from various states of the universe when it was much younger. This vigor of its youth is no longer the real time universe. Modern physics lost its way when it started to use the magic of uncertainty. They began to conjure an imaginary material universe with eternal life.
Entropy, although hard to explain in simple terms, is nevertheless a measurable variable. It was first discovered during the early development of steam engines. They would do an energy balance around the new steam engines to calculate efficiency and what they discovered was there was always lost energy, that could not be accounted for. This lost energy was called entropy.
What was then later discovered, through measurements of all types of materials in different states, is entropy was a state variable, meaning any given state of matter has a fixed amount of entropy. For example, water at 25C and 1 atmosphere of pressure always has the same entropy value, no matter how this final state is reached. Entropy is similar to a type of free energy based information, associated with very specific states of matter. It is not the matter itself. That matter based energy is connected to H or enthalpy or internal energy. It is about the informational organization of the matter during very specific conditions.
The TS term in the free energy equation has the units of energy. If we remove T or temperature and only look at S, entropy has units not connected to any type of energy. It is a unique form of information that can become energy, as we know it, if we combine this information with matter and temperature. But not all states can be reproduced again, since some came so early and were so vigorous or unique.
Our DNA has information built into it, that dates back to the first forms of life, all the way to the present; evolution. It has entropic potential and information of earlier states of life. We can tap into this potential and release the hidden free energy, but that takes energy; metabolic. The universe is the same in the sense that the BB expansion, has a trajectory that came from its vigorous beginning, that is still part of the present, but its free energy is not reusable in any "net" way. We can reverse bits and pieces but at an energy cost that will increase entropy elsewhere.
Where this interfaces the beginning of the universe, is connected to the theory of space-time breaking down into separated time and separated space at a speed of light reference. This premise is based on plugging in c into the Special Relativity Equations.
With time and space acting separately, combinations of space and time can appear that are not possible, if we include matter. It would include information of states that go beyond the limits of space-time and matter. In such a place, I could imagine flying to the end of the universe is zero time. This si not possible with matter and space-time but is possible with information.
Within this matrix of memory of infinite information options would be infinite free energy. The information blue print of the material universe could have been forge ahead in separated space and separated time, before matter appeared; brooding over the deep from cradle to grave.
At a junction where separated space meets separated time, practical limits are placed by this pseudo space-time, such as when our imagination hits practical limits; confronts practical reality. This created a local loss of entropy, from infinite to finite, with the release of free energy; Boom!
There after, the second law begins and the universe evolves and ages as it gains entropy, heading back to the state of infinite entropy. Along the way an irreversible and conserved pool of information of previous states appears that contain bled off free energy; afterlife.
Last edited:
I haven't read all your post but it seems you do understand entropy, however, not completely
I will say there is a difference between reducing free energy and as you said, "entropy absorbing energy." The amount of energy in a closed system (assuming the universe is a closed system) does not change.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Modern science can only produce such unnatural speculations and theories on behalf of the strange idea of a linear cosmological concept of a Big Bang - where an overall and logical perspective speaks of an infinite universe and an eternal process of formation, dissolution and re-formation in this infinite Universe.
This is the only way the law of conservation of energy can be obeyed and followed in all it´s meaning.
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Very interesting, but gonna have to read it a few more times to understand everything you wrote, if then.
Pardon my question, but is gravity subject to entropy? If so, wouldn't gravitational fields and effects change across the entire universe at the same time? This would add to to an inaccurate conclusion from look back time you mention in your post, right?
Fascinating thread, keep it going!
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
So as the universe expands, entropy increases, because the universe expands? That seems consistent with the particle horizon, as mass falls over the horizon it is no longer available, there is less gravity, less energy, higher entropy. But then we are on the back side of an infinite number of particles horizons, so shouldnt our cosmic bubble be gaining energy decreasing entropy? Otherwise something isn't right with something, and that something could be speed of gravity, right? Wouldn't this all make sense if gravity wasn't bound by light speed and stuff falls over the edge of the horizon isn't really lost?
@Meow Mix
@wellwisher
@ChristineM
I probably won't be able to sleep tonight because of this, sigh.
@Meow Mix
@wellwisher
@ChristineM
I probably won't be able to sleep tonight because of this, sigh.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Asking such logical questions isn´t fair against the speculative mathematical consensus theorists
All over the places, one can find inconsistent and contradictive arguments. Much like "the universe is expanding like a balloon" - but mathematically and geometrically it is considered to be flat.
IMO the modern astrophysicists and cosmologists have long ago lost the firm connection to nature and are now flying far astray in cosmological bubbles of speculations.
The balloon idea is a simple model to help explain the observed motion.
And that's measured to be flat to 5 decimal places, no cosmologists can say if curvature occurs after that precision.
And of course it is considered (within the bounds of measurement) to be flat in 3 dimensions.
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Now this is starting to get interesting. No matter what direction we look we see the afterglow of the big bang, meaning the universe is closed, but math says the universe is flat, which means we should not see the afterglow of the big bang. So perhaps what we think Is the afterglow of the big bang isn't at all that, but something else. It seems reasonable to me that empty space expands, the more empty space the more the expansion. It also seems reasonable to me that expansion of space would create a particle horizon such that no matter which way we look we "see" the particle horizon, but since the particle horizon is the edge not the origin flat universe is preserved. So it seems we should ask the question what is it we "see" on the particle horizon that we think is the afterglow of the big bang that violates flat universe. So an obvious problem with the particle horizon is that "if" gravity is finite then matter that falls beyond the particle horizon is lost and violates conservation of energy. So what exactly happens when the conservation of energy is violated? Didn't the big bang violate the conservation of energy during inflation which is the cause for the afterglow, right? So if the particle horizon is violating the conservation of energy then wouldn't we expect to see the same sort of signature, nothing to do with the big bang, if the big bang happened at all (can't see it from flat universe). So empty space isn't uniform so the particle horizon isn't a perfect sphere leading to thick and thin afterglow no matter which way we look, which is what we see, but can't be from big bang cause universe is flat.
Anyway, so the interesting question is why would the violation of conservation of energy cause an afterglow effect on the particle horizon that we confuse with the big bang?
So before I continue I need a sanity check from someone sane ha ha, did the big bang violate conservation of energy during inflation and is the afterglow the direct result of that violation?
Thanks!
Heyo
Veteran Member
Nope. The reason we see the CMB in every direction is that light has a finite speed. I.e., in the balloon model, we never see the whole balloon but the farther we look, we only see the balloon as it was some time ago.
Black: the universe until the last scattering (CMB)
Green: the visible universe
Blue: all of the universe
Even if the universe isn't curved as in the balloon model (imagine the blue not being a circle but filling the whole picture), we can see only the green bubble.
Btw.: it is not maths that tells us that the universe is flat but our observations.
1. Conservation of energy doesn't apply to the universe the same way as in limited parts of it. E.g. the energy density of space is a constant and space expands, so Dark Energy increases.
2. Particles "falling off the particle horizon" are not really "lost", they are only "lost" to us (have no longer a causal connection to us). They are still visible to other parts of the universe (and we can infer their existence by observing their effect of those parts of the universe).
Hope that helps and take it with a grain of salt. I'm not a cosmologist this is just my layman's explanation. @Meow Mix may may confirm or correct.
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
The measurement of the iniverses shape was carried out using triangle geometry from 2 points on the CMB and an obsever on earth.
The CMB is 360 degrees, so any two points can be accurate measured. The angle of the points as seen by the observers tells us the universe is flat in 2 dimensions. However the same method can be used on any 2 points + observer giving a 3 dimensional result. So yes the universe bis measured flat but flat in every direction.
I understand the CMB to be the limit of observation. After that the map says here be dragons.
It is roughly 13.8 billon light years away so we are seeing it very soon after the bb.
I'll try to come back to this thread later tonight, have been doing a lot of thesis work this week so have only been commenting on "lighter" topics. I mean, @Heyo and @ChristineM are answering questions well (and they are good questions @JoshuaTree , as usual). I also owe @Native like a billion replies to stuff.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Energy conservation implies that the energy of the universe is constant, as you have said. Energy can be transformed into other forms; electrical to mechanical, but it cannot be created or destroyed. There is a constant amount of energy in any closed system. The energy going into increasing entropy; 2nd law, although conserved by the universe, is no longer in a form that can be "net reused" by the material universe. Entropy is like a terminal limbo state for energy.
Perpetual motion machines, over the years, have tried to reclaim the lost energy, within entropy. Nobody has been able to net retrieve all the energy lost into entropy. They can get some of this energy back, but never 100% of it. The second law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. The universe is bleeding energy that it cannot retrieve in any net way. It is conserved, by is net not reusable by matter.
We can use machines to lower entropy and we can retrieve some of this terminal state of energy on a small scale. But our machines will use more energy than we gain, since our tools will increase the entropy in other ways. The net affect is lost energy into entropy. It is still conserved by the universe, but not in a net reusable way.
For example, we can lower the entropy of water vapor by condensing it into liquid water. Liquid water has lower entropy than water vapor. The change of phase will give off the entropic energy. However, our refrigeration tools are not 100% efficient and will require more energy than we can ever get back. There is no such thing as perpetual motion, since a new energy loss will appear and entropy will still increase; 2nd law requires entropy to increase.
The second law and energy conservation imply there is a pool of increasing entropy and terminal energy, that is not longer reusable by the universe in a net way. It is conserved, but not net reusable. We can recycle it on a small scale, but this will only created more entropy. Entropy is like a terminal place for energy, that separates it from the material universe recycle. It is conserved by the universe, but it no longer net reusable by material reality.
Entropy appears to have a connection to the flow of time. Time moves in one direction, to the future, just as entropy and the second law moves in one direction; has to increase. The loss of energy into entropy, causes the universe to age and change as it ages. It cannot go backwards in time and repeat the past since the energy bleed off into increasing entropy, is not available to the universe, so it can only go forward using the left over reusable energy that also declines with time.
Entropy is not energy as we know it. In the Gibbs Free energy equation, TS has the units of energy. Energy is the product of entropy; S and temperature; T. Even at zero temperature, where there is no change of free energy with any amount of entropy, entropy is still a variable that can exist on its own. It is a type of information about current and previous states.
Entropy by itself does not have the units of energy. This is part of the reason it becomes more or less off limits to the material universe's net energy recycle. It is not in another dimension, but matter cannot retrieve its full energy content in any "net" way. Entropy is more like information of states of matter; past and present, since each state contains or contained a specific amount of entropy. The energy within entropy is conserved within information. This increasing pool of lost terminal energy is the perfect place for the after life since it part of the universe and contain entropic information, while life and consciousness generate a lot of entropic information. Energy conservation says this should be conserved.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Very interesting, but gonna have to read it a few more times to understand everything you wrote, if then.
Pardon my question, but is gravity subject to entropy? If so, wouldn't gravitational fields and effects change across the entire universe at the same time? This would add to to an inaccurate conclusion from look back time you mention in your post, right?
Fascinating thread, keep it going!
Gravity can lower entropy. As an example, gravity will create pressure and pressure can turn water vapor into liquid water. This lowers the entropy of the water and give off energy as heat. However, the exothermic heat of vaporization will flow from hot to cold, being reabsorbed by entropy increase elsewhere.
Gravity might be able to delay this flow of heat from hot to cold, but as time goes on the lowering of entropy will go away as the heat cools, never to be useful again. The flow of heat from hot to cold, like the direction of time to the future, are both implied by the action of entropy and the second law.
Typically, material contractions due to gravity will lower entropy and release heat; work. In the case of stars, this heat and pressure can ignite fusion, which will lower the entropy of hydrogen atoms; into helium, and gives off even more heat. This heat of fusion will then fluff out the star; opposite gravity, to increase its entropy, while also allowing an increasing the flow of heat from hot to cold; more entropy. Gravity is not a perpetual motion machine, but has it has built in inefficiencies due to the second law; time and heat flow.
Too many cosmology theories use perpetual motion premises. The bottomline is the universe ages and bleeds off energy that it can no longer reuse in any net way. It cannot go on forever, or return where it came, without perpetual motion.
The concept of entropy became side tracked in the Golden Age of Physics, because everyone seemed to focus on the mechanics behind entropy and forgot about the experimental proof and the simplicity of the second law. Experimentally, entropy was the lost energy could be measured and was therefore real even if we could not explain the mechanics in a consensus way.
The mechanics although interesting, are not needed to do a free energy balance and realize the universe is bleeding free energy into an increasing pool, that it cannot fully recycle. Gravity can tap the pool, but it has to give it back over time plus interest. The universe is aging and can only go forward as it ages. There is no perpetual motion for a forever or repeating universe. However, the increasing pool of lost energy contains information from the universe's present and past.
As a slight detour, life is interesting in that cells absorbs food materials and use these to create large scale structural order within the cell. The DNA defines high entropy due to its complexity, but it has less total entropy than the sum of its smaller parts. The cell lowers the entropy of these combined input materials, by using them to create large ordered complex structures. It is similar to a condensation. The goal appears to be to create an enhanced entropic potential within the cell, compared to outside, enhance the impact of the second law. It is setting up a situation to enhance an internal need to increase entropy; metabolism.
Enzymes also make use of entropic potential. For example, all active bio-molecules are left or right handed; protein and DNA, but not both. Going from both left and right handed monomers and polymers to just left or just right, forever lowers entropy. The second law now has to get busier near these materials due to this perpetual entropic potential. Life can tap into the entropy pool but not as perpetual motion. Life will net increase entropy and leaves its mark in the pool.
Last edited:
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
I haven't had time to delve into this yet, but a quick question for you or anyone caring to contribute.
It is confusing to me that the CMB marking the origin of the universe can be observed looking away in any direction 13.8 billion light-years which is the same distance we can see in our cosmic bubble. Our cosmic bubble is a subset of the universe, we can't see beyond the particle horizon due to expansion. Is it just pure coincidence that we see CMB on the particle horizon (pure coincidence the moon same size as sun in eclipse). I'm gonna research this soon.
Thanks!
Heyo
Veteran Member
The CMB is not marking the origin of the universe. The universe was already about 400.000 years old at the time of the CMB (which is a short time compared to the 13.800.000.000 year age of the universe).
Again: you can only see into the past. Every line of sight is directed at the Big Bang blocked either by an object or the CMB.
It is not the expansion that creates the particle horizon but time. We can't see things because their light hadn't time to reach us yet.
The expansion is responsible for the fact that we will never see them because the universe expands faster than the speed of light. The expansion also causes red-shift so that things (and the CMB) will eventually drop off our ability to detect them (in a few trillion years).
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
The BB happened everywhere. On a planet millions of lightyears away it would be the same distance away ftom the observer.
.
Yes its coincidence that the moon and sun are the ssme size. The moon is slowly moving away from earth. In the distant past the moon was closer so appeared larger than the sun. In the future it will be further away so appear smaller than the sun.
Point of interest, the moon is drifting away from us at approximately the same rate your finger nails grow. (About 3.8 cm per year)
It's not a coincidence because the CMB happened everywhere. The confusion here is just the unintuitive fact that looking out is looking back, so it seems like a thing "out there" rather than a thing "everywhere."
The CMB is right here. It's very cold, under 3 K. But the further you look out, the smaller the universe was at the time photons left that distance to reach your detector. There is a straightforwardly inverse proportionality between the scale of the universe and the temperature (e.g., a is proportional to 1/T). When you look out far enough, you see the surface of last scattering: this is just seeing the universe as it was right as it ceased being opaque. So, at the time of last scattering, it's not like there was this opaque cloud that existed in part of the universe: the whole universe had just stopped being opaque. But remember time translates to a distance to us observers. So if we try to look further back (further out), we see the universe as it was when it was opaque. So this is like trying to look past a cloud's edge, we can't, we just see the whiteness of the cloud where the photons last scattered from it.
[GALLERY=media, 9519]Lastscatter by Meow Mix posted Jun 30, 2021 at 10:06 PM[/GALLERY]