Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Hockeycowboy]

....and feel like I am cooperating rather than submitting.

That is a good way to describe it! I’ve got to remember that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry? How on earth does faith lead to anything?.... cause faith is not a path to knowing. Absolutely not a path to that.

To some, maybe not.

To me there is no greater Truth, all the rest is a temporary illusion.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Charles Taze Russell was not a prophet and never claimed to be one. We have no prophets except the ones chosen by God, whose words are recorded in scripture. Jesus was God's last prophet and it was Russell's intent, along with a group of like minded ones to examine the scriptures intently to see if Christendom's teachings were founded on scripture or whether they had fallen into the same trap that Judaism had....substituting man-made doctrines for God's word. These men pored over the scripture trying to find the scriptural back up for all of Christendom's doctrines.......they found none. This prompted the group to advertise their findings in a newsletter published across the USA. It was the forerunner of the Watchtower magazine which is still printed today. It outlined the clear teachings of the Bible and exposed Christendom for the "weeds" of Jesus illustration.

As people began to see the truth of Russell's words, he gained quite a following, debating well known clergy on scripture that they were ill equipped to refute. The groundwork was begun that we believe was foretold in Daniel 12:4-9-10...

"As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant. . . .Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."

It was time for the truth to be told and we believe that God selected the ones who would create the means to have it declared in all the earth, as Jesus said it would be...in Matthew 24:14...
"And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
This was all to take place in "the time of the end" which we believe began with the outbreak of WW 1. All of the features of the sign that Jesus gave to confirm that his return had taken place (Matthew 24:3-14) have all been in evidence since 1914.

Do we expect Christ's chosen ones to be well received? If the son of God was persecuted and put to death for daring to expose the hypocrisy of his own religious leaders, then would we expect those who have a similar work in this "time of the end" to be well received? No, not according to Jesus. (John 15:18-21)

It is plain to see Charles Taze was no Prophet and you have no Prophets in your Church. Regardless, the problem is your organisations makes predictions about the future that don't eventuate so there is no reason to believe your branch of Christendom over other branches. In fact being consistently wrong provides reason enough to follow a branch of Christianity that has the good sense not to make predictions at all let alone those that don't come to pass.

It is true JWs are poorly regarded amongst Christians as a whole. Just because others think you are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Sometimes people think others are wrong because they clearly are wrong.

The more I become familiar with the beliefs of the JWs the less impressed I become.

1/ It is an organisation you seem to view every other organisation as under the domain of Satan whether religious or political.

2/ Basic science seems to be discarded so your literal biblical interpretations can be accommodated.

3/ The JW beliefs about an impending apocalypse based on literal interpretation of the book of revelation are extremely implausible.

4/ The overall result is the JWs become disengaged with the actual work God requires of us to make the world a better place. Instead I hear JWs complaining about how bad the world is and an unwillingness to take positive action to make things better because of the impending apocalypse.

Which is exactly what Jesus did. His greatest enemies were his fellow Jews....the leaders of his own religion. They were responsible for his murder.

With the passing of two thousand years and the persecution of Jews leading to the extermination of millions of Jews, the time to move on from blaming the Jews and rehashing the same old stuff is long past.

Jesus said that the days of his return would be 'just like the days of Noah'. What were the circumstances of Noah's day? Regardless of whether you believe it was a real event or allegory....what is the lesson?

The earth was filled with violence and immorality because of the rebellious angels that caused wickedness to increase to a shocking degree in those days. We see those levels of violence and immorality again today when we are supposed to be more civilized in this 'age of reason'. Not content to practice it themselves, they do so through their entertainment choices. Young children are raised on a steady diet of violence and immorality on their electronic devices, Hollywood movies and even in their school yards, posting videos on social media to brag about it...

Noah preached to the people of his day for the whole time that he and his family were constructing the ark. Peter calls him a "preacher of righteousness", but it fell on deaf ears. By the time the ridicule turned to fear, the water was swirling around their knees as they probably tried to get to higher ground. The rain was torrential and relentless for 40 days and nights....nothing outside of that ark survived. What is the lesson?

Jehovah's day of judgment will not be kind to those who fail to "do the will of the father". (Matthew 7:21-23) No one left knocking on the door of the ark as the water rose, was permitted entry. They had their chance to listen for decades, and then, when they realized that Noah wasn't a deluded fool, it was too late.

Remaining silent and listening to others is not what God is telling us to do...he is telling us to listen to his son, who is about to return and deal with this wicked world once and for all. Listening to others is just confusing the whole issue. IMO, Baha'i teachings are not in line with Jesus' teachings at all...they are at odds with them.

Jesus also criticised the people of His day for not being able to read the signs of the times (Matthew 16:3). You have this extremely dim and dark view of the world.

In regards the future, both our faiths believe that peace will be established on earth. We have very different visions about how that will come about as well as our role as individuals and what our respective faith communities have to offer.

For Baha'is world peace is not only possible but inevitable. Whether it comes about through cooperation or unimaginable horrors is a choice before humanity. We are part of humanity so our attitudes and actions can contribute towards peace or retard its progress.

I presented to you before a list of positive social changes since the nineteenth century that are essential to a peaceful world.

1/ All peoples are increasingly seen as equal regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality or religious affiliation.

2/ Universal education has been progressively implemented throughout the globe.

3/ The equality of men and women has been firmly established at most levels of society.

4/ There are unprecedented levels of international cooperation and agencies for socioeconomic development.

5/ Democratic institutions have become the preferred model of government at a local and national level.

6/ Slavery has largely been abolished.

These are all Teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Of course its everyone that's on board to some extent. The Baha'i Faith is a relatively small community of about 5 - 10 million worldwide.

What are the consequences for the world?

1/ The amount of deaths due to international conflict has dramatically decreased in the twenty-first century.

2/ People are living longer and are more prosperous.

3/ Levels of education have increased greatly.

There are many problems in the world of course, but on the whole humanity appears to be heading in the right direction. So perhaps you should better heed the Words of Jesus and consider the signs more attentively.

Baha'i's seem to be trying to squeeze everyone's religion into one tidy box when that is nothing like what Jesus taught. Jesus himself said..."Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters". We cant have feet in several camps...we have them firmly planted in just one. God has only ever had "one" people, because there is only one God and and one truth.

To accept a prophet with no credentials at all except a claim to be from God, who demonstrated no abilities that Jesus did, whilst claiming to be Christ returned, is to me quite gullible. No offshoot from Islam will produce the return of the Messiah....The second coming has not yet occurred because we would all be living under the blessings of the Kingdom of God and experiencing the words of Revelation 21:2-4....

The Baha'i Faith is an independent religion. It is neither a sect nor denomination of Christianity or Islam. Although Christianity emerged from Judaism, Christ established an independent religion independent from Judaism. In a similar manner, although the Baha'i faith emerged from Islam, our founder Baha'u'llah established an independent religion.

Baha'u'llah brought New Teachings that are suited for the modern age. Judaism is 3,500 years old, Christianity 2,000 years and Islam 1,400. Many of the Teachings revealed in these Faiths are no longer suited to the current age.

Baha'is believe God progressively Reveals Himself. Judaism is based on the Teachings of Noah and Abraham. Christianity is based on Judaism. Islam is based on Judaism and Christianity. The Baha'i Faith is based on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. However like its predecessors, Baha'u'llah brought a new Revelation.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

I'm not asking you to believe in the Baha'i Faith, simply explaining it to you. You have made criticisms of the Baha'i Faith. They are easily refuted. You claim we are all things to all people. We are an independent religion based on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah.

You claim we are at odds with Christianity. That is not true. In regards the Baha'i Faith's position regarding Christianity:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

To some, maybe not.

To me there is no greater Truth, all the rest is a temporary illusion.

Regards Tony

It is possible to prove that faith is worthless, at finding the truth about *anything*.

Because faith is, by definition, belief in things for which you have no evidence.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't need faith...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You have a very warped view of the whole situation IMO....but you can believe whatever you like. Its your life.

You can't demonstrate why it's "warped." At best all you can do is claim that my stating that Jesus said one thing but Paul said another isn't valid because, although the words used are different and say different things, they mean the same thing. I'm not the one inserting things to fill the gaps to make ends meet, like stretching "lord not of the dead but of the living" to mean "lord of the living and dead."

 

[3rdAngel]

It is possible to prove that faith is worthless, at finding the truth about *anything*.

Because faith is, by definition, belief in things for which you have no evidence.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't need faith...

Atheism fits into this category then. Some who follow it have faith that there is no God yet they have no evidence that God does not exist. Therefore atheism is the religion of many who do not believe in God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Very few atheists have faith that there is no God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is possible to prove that faith is worthless, at finding the truth about *anything*.

Because faith is, by definition, belief in things for which you have no evidence.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't need faith...

Many have tried that path, to prove Faith is worthless.

I ask where are they?

We can easily recognise all the Faiths that they tried to say were worthless and note all the good they have done and all the knowledge they have inspired.

Yet the people that said they are worthless are but dust, gone and forgotten.

Regards Tony

 

[3rdAngel]

Very few atheists have faith that there is no God.

If atheists do not have evidence that there is no God then to believe in atheism you have to have faith. Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of God or gods. To be an athiest you need to have faith because there is no evidence that there is no God. This is the religion of many who do not believe in God.

 

[McBell]

Many have tried that path, to prove Faith is worthless.

I ask where are they?

We can easily recognise all the Faiths that they tried to say were worthless and note all the good they have done and all the knowledge they have inspired.

Yet the people that said they are worthless are but dust, gone and forgotten.

Regards Tony

If counting the hits and ignoring the misses works for you, by all means, run with it.

 

[McBell]

If atheists do not have evidence that there is no God then to believe in atheism they have to have faith. Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of God or gods. To be an athiest you need to have faith because there is no evidence that there is no God.

Except that atheism is merely the lack of belief in god(s)
The belief there is no god is not a defining factor for atheism regardless of how many atheists believe there is no god(s)

 

[3rdAngel]

Except that atheism is merely the lack of belief in god(s)
The belief there is no god is not a defining factor for atheism.

Sure it is. As an atheist, if there is no evidence that there is no God then you need faith to believe there is no God. The definition of athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Either way you still need faith if you have no evidence for what you believe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If counting the hits and ignoring the misses works for you, by all means, run with it.

You recognise this? I see it is your reply.

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

All the best Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

If atheists do not have evidence that there is no God then to believe in atheism you have to have faith. Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of God or gods. To be an athiest you need to have faith because there is no evidence that there is no God. This is the religion of many who do not believe in God.

No, you do not know what atheism is. Atheism is merely a lack of belief in a god. One does not need evidence for that. A lack of belief is not the same as believing that something does not exist.

Your definition of atheism is incorrect. It is a strawman of atheism.

 

[McBell]

Sure it is. As an atheist, if there is no evidence that there is no God then you need faith to believe there is no God. The definition of athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Either way you still need faith if you have no evidence for what you believe.

As an atheist, I lack a god belief.
No faith required.
Why, because it is not a belief.

Since I do not actively belief that god does not exist, Still no faith required.
Your inability to understand that is a you problem.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You recognise this? I see it is your reply.

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

All the best Regards Tony

His description sadly is correct for many theists. I won't say it aptly describes your faith since I do not know what you believe well enough, but there are some theists here that fit that description to a tee.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As an atheist, I lack a god belief.
No faith required.
Why, because it is not a belief.

Since I do not actively belief that god does not exist, Still no faith required.
Your inability to understand that is a you problem.

i doubt if he will let himself understand. But hope rises eternally.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Atheism fits into this category then. Some who follow it have faith that there is no God yet they have no evidence that God does not exist. Therefore atheism is the religion of many who do not believe in God.

That does not describe me.

YOU say, "God exists" *I* say, "I do not believe you."

YOU say, "You have to have faith." *I* say, yes... that is why I do not believe you.

The DEFAULT state is: No god. Until (if ever) theists prove otherwise? "no god" remains.

What do you have that is evidence OF god? No? Nothing?

The category remains empty. No faith needed in the slightest.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Many have tried that path, to prove Faith is worthless.

I ask where are they?.

I am one. They are called "atheists".

We can easily recognise all the Faiths that they tried to say were worthless and note all the good they have done and all the knowledge they have inspired..

Done IN SPITE OF said religion. Never because of it...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If atheists do not have evidence that there is no God then to believe in atheism you have to have faith. Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of God or gods. To be an athiest you need to have faith because there is no evidence that there is no God. This is the religion of many who do not believe in God.

Nope. Nobody believes in atheism, silly! It's not a belief.

All we ask? Is for you to show WHY you believe there is a god.

So far? You dodge these questions-- you fail to convince us.

If God were Real? It would be Godly Convincing, right?

Hmmm.... it appears God's #1 Attribute: Is to Hide from Rational Inquiry.