Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Unfettered]

The world as it is. The Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, and so on, have been around longer than Christianity, and they're still going. That would appear to mean that what they believe is no less valid (albeit no more valid) than what Christians believe, no?

The Muslims haven't been around as long, but I seem to recall a survey showing that in terms of numbers they'll overtake Christianity shortly.

Is the omnipotent Christian God going to take that lying down, or should we expect some cataclysm to reduce the opposition to ashes or whatever?

Speaking from within the framework of my understanding, God made us free. Gravitation to religious systems of our preference is part of that freedom. We are free to choose God (our primal, Eternal Father), or to choose unknown gods, though he is understandably saddened by the latter. But we are free. He does call to us through ordained servants, and through the unfolding of the events in the natural system (events both favorable and unfavorable) he's constructed; he wants to be known and chosen and loved, but will force no one.

As far as mass, mortal destruction goes, he does not threaten with destruction those who merely reject what he offers in favor of lesser things or foreign gods. Destruction on the level you're talking is reserved for the wholly wicked—those who make themselves destroyers of others, destroyers of freedom, destroyers of all that is good. And even with these he suffers long, until their hearts and desires are fully oriented toward destruction. Only then does he relieve the earth and its remaining inhabitants of the blight they (the wicked) have become.

Again, within the framework of my understanding, during the thousand-year period of rest following the millennial destruction of the wicked (fast approaching), men will not be compelled to abandon their faulty ways of thinking, for it is not an affront to God's gift of freedom that we have our own thoughts, differ from him in our opinions, or worship what we will—these are expressions of his gift of freedom and we are free to make them. Eventually, yes, "every knee will bow" to acknowledge his godship—willingly and voluntarily—not because he bullies and threatens and destroys, but because of his gifts of freedom, patience, mercy and magnanimity. But even then we will be free to be who we are and believe what we are inclined to believe.

In one of the hymns we sing are found these words:

"Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.

"He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
In nameless ways be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.

"Freedom and reason make us men;
Take these away, what are we then?
Mere animals, and just as well
The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.

"May we no more our pow’rs abuse,
But ways of truth and goodness choose;
Our God is pleased when we improve
His grace and seek his perfect love."

“Know This, That Every Soul Is Free”
Text: Anon., ca. 1805, Boston
Music: Roger L. Miller, b. 1937. © 1985 IRI

We are free. That is God's gift to us.

Does that answer your question about how God will deal with the Hindus, Buddhists, the multitudinous Christian factions, etc.?

 

[Unfettered]

I’m asking you personally. From your posts it appears that you believe there is some way to know you are being guided by the spirit, however it is also the case that many people who believe the same thing disagree about what the spirit is telling them. You believe that any disagreement is due to human failings. So, what is it you mean exactly? The question is quite straightforward, this is a belief you have so my assumption is that you have some justification for it.

You are correct that I assert we can know for ourselves that we are being guided by God's spirit—both generally and specifically. You are also correct that I assert that disagreements are due to human failings. My justification for making these assertions is my own experience, which is founded on the testimony of others, initially (I didn't make things up), and proven through diligent application (and also through abandonment, at times) in partnership with the God who issued the promises originally.

That's the foundation of my answer; it's not the entirety of the answer. So it is probably not as meaty as you'd like, but I'm happy to keep layering it with detail if you find it worth pursuing. As much meat and detail as you could possibly want—line upon line; precept upon precept; here a little and there a little.

 

[Tomef]

You are correct that I assert we can know for ourselves that we are being guided by God's spirit—both generally and specifically. You are also correct that I assert that disagreements are due to human failings. My justification for making these assertions is my own experience, which is founded on the testimony of others, initially (I didn't make things up), and proven through diligent application (and also through abandonment, at times) in partnership with the God who issued the promises originally.

That's the foundation of my answer; it's not the entirety of the answer. So it is probably not as meaty as you'd like, but I'm happy to keep layering it with detail if you find it worth pursuing. As much meat and detail as you could possibly want—line upon line; precept upon precept; here a little and there a little.

I see what you mean. To me it seems like a process of finding reasons to justify an initial idea - I mean a process that amorphous could take you anywhere you wanted it to. Personally, I find what’s really going on there - the psychology of it - more interesting than pretending there’s some sort of god being involved, but I understand you believe that to be true.

 

[Unfettered]

I see what you mean. To me it seems like a process of finding reasons to justify an initial idea - I mean a process that amorphous could take you anywhere you wanted it to. Personally, I find what’s really going on there - the psychology of it - more interesting than pretending there’s some sort of god being involved, but I understand you believe that to be true.

The process isn't as amorphous as I made it sound. It does require meaningful, specific commitments and sacrifice. I simplified it greatly because here, on RF, folks are so tuned to their own understanding of everything that even a whiff of specificity that doesn't align with or fit within what they already understand has a very high probability of being dismissed outright.

As for it being some kind of self-fulfilling idea, I don't outright reject that idea. I think it's an oversimplification, but neither is it altogether inaccurate. But who's idea? One element that was not conspicuous in my first response, though, and which anchors it as something not amorphous, is that it is God's process; his program; his promises. It didn't originate with man. It's not man's idea to lead himself to some kind of spiritual harmony with himself and the universe. Its origin is paramount. What also makes this detail so important is that, built into the plan and promise is a means whereby we—who don't see God—may test the process God offers with the tools we naturally use to test and comprehend the world we do see.

Another element not detailed in my initial response is that of miracles. Within the process these are promised. Miracles of all kinds. To our present point, for example to know—not just to believe, but to know—that God is real, is your Father, and is guiding you—is a miracle. Such is beyond the power of man to give to anyone, including himself. To live life daily with such knowledge creates a stability and peace no man can give. Such is as supernatural an endowment as is a physical healing, and potentially more impactful. I have some birth defects that affect my life pretty much daily. Nothing major, as compared to others I know, but significant enough to notice every day. If I could choose between having those defects miraculously removed and having the miracle of daily revelation and guidance from God, especially since I experience the latter already and know the difference it makes—I'd keep the physical defects. To know specific things about your future and watch the latter come to pass—a miracle. To know what is right and what is wrong, regardless of what is popular or promoted socially—a miracle. To know why you were born a certain way, at a certain time in history—miracles. To know why you are here at all—a miracle. To be able to call down the power of God to raise another person out of misery, or to heal their body in some way, or to put their mind at ease about specific, serious, vexing issues or challenges—miracles. To know God and know he approves of you (when he does), and that he loves you (always) and that he wants you to be happy and that he'll forgive you when you sincerely commit to move away from wrongs—miracles.

What I'm talking about is far greater than a curious angle on psychology, though I understand the appeal on that level. And the beauty of it is that the process extends to, and covers, all knowledge, all fields, everything. No truth is disdained. No source of truth is shunned. No person is prejudiced from being a source of truth on the basis of faction. No knowledge is out of bounds. No learning is proscribed (though not all means of learning are recommended, LOL).

I could just call it the gospel of Jesus Christ, because that's what I'm talking about. But most people have an extremely narrow understanding of what that is, viewing it merely as a set of "religious" prescriptions or teachings contained in a dusty old book that belongs to everyone but oneself, written by people they have no connection to, etc. That's about the weakest description of the gospel of Jesus Christ I can think of, though.

Anyway, I may be carrying on here far beyond your interest.

 

[blü 2]

Speaking from within the framework of my understanding, God made us free. Gravitation to religious systems of our preference is part of that freedom. We are free to choose God (our primal, Eternal Father), or to choose unknown gods, though he is understandably saddened by the latter. But we are free. He does call to us through ordained servants, and through the unfolding of the events in the natural system (events both favorable and unfavorable) he's constructed; he wants to be known and chosen and loved, but will force no one.

As far as mass, mortal destruction goes, he does not threaten with destruction those who merely reject what he offers in favor of lesser things or foreign gods. Destruction on the level you're talking is reserved for the wholly wicked—those who make themselves destroyers of others, destroyers of freedom, destroyers of all that is good. And even with these he suffers long, until their hearts and desires are fully oriented toward destruction. Only then does he relieve the earth and its remaining inhabitants of the blight they (the wicked) have become.

Again, within the framework of my understanding, during the thousand-year period of rest following the millennial destruction of the wicked (fast approaching), men will not be compelled to abandon their faulty ways of thinking, for it is not an affront to God's gift of freedom that we have our own thoughts, differ from him in our opinions, or worship what we will—these are expressions of his gift of freedom and we are free to make them. Eventually, yes, "every knee will bow" to acknowledge his godship—willingly and voluntarily—not because he bullies and threatens and destroys, but because of his gifts of freedom, patience, mercy and magnanimity. But even then we will be free to be who we are and believe what we are inclined to believe.

In one of the hymns we sing are found these words:

"Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.

"He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
In nameless ways be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.

"Freedom and reason make us men;
Take these away, what are we then?
Mere animals, and just as well
The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.

"May we no more our pow’rs abuse,
But ways of truth and goodness choose;
Our God is pleased when we improve
His grace and seek his perfect love."

“Know This, That Every Soul Is Free”
Text: Anon., ca. 1805, Boston
Music: Roger L. Miller, b. 1937. © 1985 IRI

We are free. That is God's gift to us.

Does that answer your question about how God will deal with the Hindus, Buddhists, the multitudinous Christian factions, etc.?

To be honest, it would make more sense if @Trailblazer was correct in asserting that though there are many religions, the one God is the object of all of them.

 

[Unfettered]

To be honest, it would make more sense if @Trailblazer was correct in asserting that though there are many religions, the one God is the object of all of them.

Then ask Trailblazer.

I never claimed to be able to penetrate any particular person's understanding. I do the best I can with the gifts at my disposal. What else can I offer? But God won't punish you because I can't explain his ways in a manner that makes sense.

Did I make that simple enough to understand?

 

[Sargonski]

I have no idea to whom you're referring when you say "the chief God on earth". I know the God of the Bible, God in heaven, and He knows me.

Clearly you know not the Bible that well if you know not the Chief God on Earth .. in addition to not knowing the name of the God in the Bible you claim to know.

You say you know the "God of the Bible" .. OK .. which one ? Azazel ? how about the God named Jealous ? or YHWH ! or .. my apologies for leaving out the Divine female Asherah.

The Chief God on Earth we first meet in the book of Job ... he one of the Sons of God attending some divine funcion in heaven. This God is the tester of Souls ... roaming the earth .. with some very impressive Godly powers .. but is not yet Chief God on Earth. We learn of this God's promotion at the ritual testing of Jesus .. having recieved a small piece of the divine spark at his Baptism had to go through the testing prior to becoming actualized..

During the Ritual Jesus goes before the tester of souls .. Ha Satan .. The Adversary .. who is now Chief God on Earth. This is a God of the Bible .. and this God knows you... and hangs out in heaven from time to time .. "God in heaven".

This God of the Bible meets your criteria ... you just didn't realize was Chief God over the earth.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But there aren't any skeletal or fossil remains of venomous snakes on the island aside from native species and there are no written accounts of deadly vipers prior to the incident

A more reasonable explanation given is that there could have been a venomous Maltese snake which has since become extinct. However, there is no evidence – fossil, documented or otherwise – of a dangerous indigenous viper inhabiting Malta during historical times. And there is no evidence of an extinction event (such as the introduction of a predator or strongly competing species) that could wipe out an entire population of vipers, while leaving other species of snakes alive.

Which viper bit St Paul in Malta?

St Paul was bitten by a viper right in front of a group of awestruck natives on the island of Melita, who knew very well how venomous the particular snake was and so expected the victim to “swell up or fall down dead”. Since he remained unharmed they...

timesofmalta.com

After the fact there was a local legend that rose up that all the snakes lost their venom after Paul had cast the snake into the fire. Seems like a convenient explanation for why there are no deadly snakes on Malta

Doesn't seem like a very likely explanation to me when the more likely explanation was that he was just lying

First of all, it wasn’t Paul who recorded the account (that’s a mistake), it was Luke.

Second, why would there need to be fossilized evidence? According to some estimates, of all species that have ever existed, a small percentage have been fossilized.

Third, from the beginning of its inhabitancy, the island of Malta has always been frequently visited by ships. They are one mode of distributing invasive species.

And fourth, my previous post stands.

No solid evidence has been found to disprove any events described in the Bible.
And the recorded miracles in the Bible, such as the Flood or the Red Sea crossing for instance, cannot be assessed through scientific analysis, since supernatural phenomena many times require suspension of known physical laws.

But other evidence usually results from those events.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh dear...there we go again...Honestly, everybody knows that Isaiah's 52:13–53:12 is about the Jewish people. But if you think it is for the Messiah, then it can not be Jesus because he didn't fulfill any of the 20+ requirements put up by the prophets, except from being Jewish..

God instigates all evil. Satan can do nothing without God's permission. That's what in the scriptures.

Again, according to scripture, it was God who sent them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Grief… you missed the entire focus of my post! (Purposefully?)

Satan can do nothing without God's permission. That's what in the scriptures.

Where does it say that?

Does permitting something, mean it is what God wants?

Does He want you to say He “instigates all evil”? 2 Peter 3:9 would imply otherwise.

Maybe there’s a reason why God allows bad things to happen.

The Bible tells us the reason, but few know it, or have been taught it.

 

[Ajax]

Where does it say that?

Does permitting something, mean it is what God wants?

Does He want you to say He “instigates all evil”? 2 Peter 3:9 would imply otherwise.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Read Job...satan asks for God's permission to harm Job

Luke 22:31–32. Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat.."

Also Lord's prayer "...And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Almost everything in the Bible is contradictory, which is to be expected, if so many different authors push their own ideas about God.

 

[blü 2]

Then ask Trailblazer.

I never claimed to be able to penetrate any particular person's understanding. I do the best I can with the gifts at my disposal. What else can I offer? But God won't punish you because I can't explain his ways in a manner that makes sense.

Did I make that simple enough to understand?

My understanding is that the only manner in which gods are known to exist is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains. None that I know of have a description appropriate to a being with material existence, that is, found in the world external to the self.

Outside of the debate forums here, this being one of them, I don't mind what people believe. What's important, I think, is that they try to do no harm and to treat others with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense.

 

[Tomef]

Anyway, I may be carrying on here far beyond your interest.

I do find it interesting, just from a different perspective. I mean, we created gods. It’s not difficult (from the advent of writing in any case, and a bit before that based on what is written and evidence of different customs etc that have been dug up here and there) to track the progress of that. As humans got more organised, their ideas about who the gods are developed in tandem. In that sense it is all psychology - in the broadest sense of all human behaviour and motivations. God is our creation, we made him, just as we made all the other gods and invisible beings, as fictions to explain things that couldn’t otherwise be understood at the time.

I think this reveals something positive, profound and uplifting about humans. God is an aspirational idea. It’s an idea that has been used and abused, but ultimately, or for most people, it represents an ideal, something like Plato’s forms but in a less definitive sense, just the idea that such a thing as a perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful being could exist is an expression perhaps of the quest for ultimate knowledge, truth, justice and so on, and its good to know that we have that desire within us, and also that we don’t need a fictional god to work towards such unattainable goals in order to make things as good as they can be for the largest number of people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yes, you know God, but 'how' you know God cannot be explained to others who do not know God.

There is an explanation, however, that CAN be given for why he claims to know a god that might not r doesn't exist (see below).

Faith is what God wants us to have and that is why there is no proof that God exists.

Perhaps there is no proof or even good evidence that a god exists because no god exists. Here's the problem with faith. It allows one to hold those same conclusions without sufficient evidence to conclude that they are not incorrect.

It is absurd to think that people abandoned Christianity because they read the Bible.

Once they develop critical thinking skills if they ever do, people will often stop believing the Bible. This is why your Bible calls knowledge foolishness and holding faith-beliefs wisdom. This is why the church wants to get to children young, in their schools where children never taught religion and never brought to church can be found, before they can develop such skills, and why some denominations discourage college. Critical thinking is kryptonite to faith-based thought. There is no place for faith in reason. It generates a non sequitur fallacy and an unsound conclusion every time.

I went to the hospital because of a severe asthma attack. AT THE TIME I WAS A CONFIRMED ATHEIST! A pastor prayed for me and I was a) instantly healed

I don't believe that you had asthma severe enough to hospitalize you that was instantly reversed. I'm assuming that you mean admitted as an inpatient for treatment of severe, life-threatening asthma treated with intravenous bronchodilators like aminophylline and not just observed in an ER or getting only medicated mist inhalation therapy. Such a person will remit quickly with minimal intervention at times with or without prayers, but not somebody with severe respiratory distress and significantly reduced blood oxygen levels.

I'm very experienced treating asthma including in ICUs using mechanical ventilators. Nobody goes from that sick to well instantly as you described.

and b) my entire body was filled with extreme love (that is the only way I can describe it.)

That's description enough. What you are describing is a spiritual experience, which has nothing to do with experiencing spirits. There is no evidence that this is more than one experiencing his own mind. There are a variety of experiences that can result in some combination of a sense of connection and belonging, of mystery, of awe, and/or of gratitude. These can range from moving aesthetic experiences like rapturous music to a beautiful sunset to mindful gardening to informed stargazing to taking psychedelics to becoming a mother or rescuing an animal.

There is a temptation to conclude that one is experiencing a god, hence tripping people describe seeing the face of God just like you did, possibly from hypoxemia in your case. And that's how I understand your description of your spiritual experience. Sure, maybe you experienced a deity, but maybe you just misinterpreted your own mind and misunderstood the experience it generated as experiencing an intelligent, loving agency. And since you cannot know which of those it is, you cannot know that a god exists, but you CAN believe that you know that.

The mind also tells us what it finds beautiful, valuable, funny, and more. These, too, are endogenously arising mental states in response to various experiences. We don't mistake them as being qualities intrinsic to that being experienced. We understand them as subjective assessments generated by unseen neural circuitry.

The spiritual experience can be understood the same way. One is attaching significance to an experience that might have little or no significance to another mind. One stargazer understands the immense distances a drop of starlight has travelled to impact his retina and announce its existence to him, as well as the fact that we are stardust forged in the belly of such monstrously huge and hot infernos, and experience a frisson in his spine as he feels a sense of connection, mystery, awe, and gratitude. Another just sees a speck of light and has no such extra experience. The experience is subjective and endogenous, not a report about what's out there in reality beyond a pixel of light.

 

[Soandso]

First of all, it wasn’t Paul who recorded the account (that’s a mistake), it was Luke.

Second, why would there need to be fossilized evidence? According to some estimates, of all species that have ever existed, a small percentage have been fossilized.

Third, from the beginning of its inhabitancy, the island of Malta has always been frequently visited by ships. They are one mode of distributing invasive species.

And fourth, my previous post stands.

No solid evidence has been found to disprove any events described in the Bible.
And the recorded miracles in the Bible, such as the Flood or the Red Sea crossing for instance, cannot be assessed through scientific analysis, since supernatural phenomena many times require suspension of known physical laws.

But other evidence usually results from those events.

It's not really an issue of disproving it, though. It's an issue of if it's convincing. Given what evidence there is that it happened vs. the evidence of what the actual historical setting for the story is, it just doesn't seem likely. This is the way it is for almost all biblical stories, from what I've seen

 

[Trailblazer]

To be honest, it would make more sense if @Trailblazer was correct in asserting that though there are many religions, the one God is the object of all of them.

It makes more sense, but Christians don't want to believe that because if it was true that would mean that Christianity is not the only 'true' religion from God and Jesus is not the only way. Of course those two things are not true, but Christians have to believe them in order to align with Christian dogma. Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far.

 

[Unfettered]

My understanding is that the only manner in which gods are known to exist is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains. None that I know of have a description appropriate to a being with material existence, that is, found in the world external to the self.

Understood. I think we've covered this ground before. God, whom I know, is a material man like me, comprised of real, material tissue—flesh…bones...eyes...nose...a whole, bodily man—occupying real space, though in a higher state of existence and not subject to the elements or corruption, as is my body. I understand that my knowledge and description do not have significance to you.

Outside of the debate forums here, this being one of them, I don't mind what people believe. What's important, I think, is that they try to do no harm and to treat others with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense.

Agreed.

 

[jimb]

I also have faith, but it is evidence-based faith. No just God would expect people to believe if there was no evidence.

Faith is what God wants us to have and that is why there is no proof that God exists.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Believing in God requires faith since no man has ever seen God. Then we go looking for the evidence. I believe that God will reward those who earnestly seek Him by helping them find the evidence they need to believe.

God could prove that He exists if God wanted to do so, but If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith, because we would know 'for a fact' that God exists. So, it makes logical sense to me why there is no proof that God exists, because God wants us to believe on faith and the evidence that God provides.

Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but there is no way to verify that God exists, so there is no verifiable evidence, which is the kind of evidence that atheists want.

The only way we could have verifiable evidence (proof) that God exists is if God verified His existence in some manner.
If God wanted verify that He exists He could easily do so, but instead all God offers is evidence. The Bible is evidence, but there is also other evidence.

What is "evidence-based faith"? To me, that is a contradiction.

Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."

That says just the opposite, and it contradicts what you write about verifiable evidence.

 

[Unfettered]

I do find it interesting, just from a different perspective. I mean, we created gods. It’s not difficult (from the advent of writing in any case, and a bit before that based on what is written and evidence of different customs etc that have been dug up here and there) to track the progress of that. As humans got more organised, their ideas about who the gods are developed in tandem. In that sense it is all psychology - in the broadest sense of all human behaviour and motivations. God is our creation, we made him, just as we made all the other gods and invisible beings, as fictions to explain things that couldn’t otherwise be understood at the time.

I know that God is not a creation of man, but I understand where you're coming from.

I think this reveals something positive, profound and uplifting about humans. God is an aspirational idea. It’s an idea that has been used and abused, but ultimately, or for most people, it represents an ideal, something like Plato’s forms but in a less definitive sense, just the idea that such a thing as a perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful being could exist is an expression perhaps of the quest for ultimate knowledge, truth, justice and so on, and its good to know that we have that desire within us, and also that we don’t need a fictional god to work towards such unattainable goals in order to make things as good as they can be for the largest number of people.

I hear you, but I don't think I'd appreciate the idea of God were my understanding not what it is. The idea would be a ridiculous impediment. I'm not sure I like what that says about me, as compared to your more optimistic assessment of humankind, but insofar as I can objectively think beyond what know, I think it's true. I am very much a "natural" man.

 

[jimb]

Yes, by reading all the falsehoods and contradictions, as well as the crimes performed by God in OT.
Take for example the Exodus where God punished the Egyptians with various diseases for not letting the Jews free, but at the same time hardened Pharaoh's heart not to let them go...
The best way to covert people to Christianity is for all denominations to denounce the Old Testament, which is simply ridiculous.

You are clearly speaking subjectively. If you think that there are falsehoods and contradictions, then you clearly are unable to understand Scripture.

Your last sentence shows an amazing lack of comprehension.

 

[jimb]

It makes more sense, but Christians don't want to believe that because if it was true that would mean that Christianity is not the only 'true' religion from God and Jesus is not the only way. Of course those two things are not true, but Christians have to believe them in order to align with Christian dogma. Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far.

Your sentence, "Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far" is beyond negative. I will never understand how anyone can make such a hateful statement.

As a result, I am putting you on "ignore".