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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is an explanation, however, that CAN be given for why he claims to know a god that might not r doesn't exist (see below).

Perhaps there is no proof or even good evidence that a god exists because no god exists. Here's the problem with faith. It allows one to hold those same conclusions without sufficient evidence to conclude that they are not incorrect.

Once they develop critical thinking skills if they ever do, people will often stop believing the Bible. This is why your Bible calls knowledge foolishness and holding faith-beliefs wisdom. This is why the church wants to get to children young, in their schools where children never taught religion and never brought to church can be found, before they can develop such skills, and why some denominations discourage college. Critical thinking is kryptonite to faith-based thought. There is no place for faith in reason. It generates a non sequitur fallacy and an unsound conclusion every time.

I don't believe that you had asthma severe enough to hospitalize you that was instantly reversed. I'm assuming that you mean admitted as an inpatient for treatment of severe, life-threatening asthma treated with intravenous bronchodilators like aminophylline and not just observed in an ER or getting only medicated mist inhalation therapy. Such a person will remit quickly with minimal intervention at times with or without prayers, but not somebody with severe respiratory distress and significantly reduced blood oxygen levels.

I'm very experienced treating asthma including in ICUs using mechanical ventilators. Nobody goes from that sick to well instantly as you described.

That's description enough. What you are describing is a spiritual experience, which has nothing to do with experiencing spirits. There is no evidence that this is more than one experiencing his own mind. There are a variety of experiences that can result in some combination of a sense of connection and belonging, of mystery, of awe, and/or of gratitude. These can range from moving aesthetic experiences like rapturous music to a beautiful sunset to mindful gardening to informed stargazing to taking psychedelics to becoming a mother or rescuing an animal.

There is a temptation to conclude that one is experiencing a god, hence tripping people describe seeing the face of God just like you did, possibly from hypoxemia in your case. And that's how I understand your description of your spiritual experience. Sure, maybe you experienced a deity, but maybe you just misinterpreted your own mind and misunderstood the experience it generated as experiencing an intelligent, loving agency. And since you cannot know which of those it is, you cannot know that a god exists, but you CAN believe that you know that.

The mind also tells us what it finds beautiful, valuable, funny, and more. These, too, are endogenously arising mental states in response to various experiences. We don't mistake them as being qualities intrinsic to that being experienced. We understand them as subjective assessments generated by unseen neural circuitry.

The spiritual experience can be understood the same way. One is attaching significance to an experience that might have little or no significance to another mind. One stargazer understands the immense distances a drop of starlight has travelled to impact his retina and announce its existence to him, as well as the fact that we are stardust forged in the belly of such monstrously huge and hot infernos, and experience a frisson in his spine as he feels a sense of connection, mystery, awe, and gratitude. Another just sees a speck of light and has no such extra experience. The experience is subjective and endogenous, not a report about what's out there in reality beyond a pixel of light.

You wrote, "Here's the problem with faith. It allows one to hold those same conclusions without sufficient evidence to conclude that they are not incorrect."

Here is what the Bible says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1) Since that is true, evidence is not required.

Your statement that "Once they develop critical thinking skills if they ever do, people will often stop believing the Bible" is nonsense. A person can have both critical thinking skills and faith. That's what I have and you don't.

And "Critical thinking is kryptonite to faith-based thought" is total nonsense. Clearly, since you lack faith, you have no understanding of what it actually is. Why don't you try to understand it? Why are you afraid of learning something???

You also wrote, "I'm very experienced treating asthma including in ICUs using mechanical ventilators. Nobody goes from that sick to well instantly as you described." So, you think that I'm lying??? I don't care what you've experienced or think you know. You are clearly incapable of true understanding! That's why you can't understand my description of my spiritual experience.

Here is what Jesus had to say about your kind of "thinking": John 9:40-41, "Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and asked him, “We are not blind too, are we?” Jesus replied, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin, but now because you claim that you can see, your guilt remains".

Since you obviously lack spiritual understanding, there is no point in continuing this discussion. You are spiritually blind!!!
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It makes more sense, but Christians don't want to believe that because if it was true that would mean that Christianity is not the only 'true' religion from God and Jesus is not the only way. Of course those two things are not true, but Christians have to believe them in order to align with Christian dogma. Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far.

God is God. His existence doesn't depend on whether people believe that He exists or not?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God, whom I know, is a material man like me, comprised of real, material tissue—flesh…bones...eyes...nose...a whole, bodily man—occupying real space, though in a higher state of existence and not subject to the elements or corruption, as is my body.
Where in the Bible does it say that God is comprised of material tissue?
The Bible says that God is Spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What is "evidence-based faith"? To me, that is a contradiction.
No, that is not a contradiction. One should have evidence to believe in God, but they also need faith, since nobody can see God.
Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."

That says just the opposite, and it contradicts what you write about verifiable evidence.
No, that is not a contradiction.

I said: Evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, but there is no way to verify that God exists, so there is no verifiable evidence, which is the kind of evidence that atheists want.

We cannot see God with our eyes or hear God with our ears, so we cannot 'verify' that God exists.

Faith is needed for what we cannot verify. We cannot verify God so we need faith in order to believe that God exists.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Where in the Bible does it say that God is comprised of material tissue?
The Bible says that God is Spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

This statement, in my opinion, demonstrates that non-Christians are often more knowledgable and understand the Bible better than most Christians.

I also see some irony in your post, given that you have never been a Christian.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your sentence, "Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far" is beyond negative. I will never understand how anyone can make such a hateful statement.

As a result, I am putting you on "ignore".
Go ahead, put me on ignore. That is easier than trying to have a discussion regarding why I said that.
Are you so indoctrinated that you cannot understand why the Christian dogma that teaches that Christianity is the only true religion and Jesus is the only way to God is harmful to humanity?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your statement that "Once they develop critical thinking skills if they ever do, people will often stop believing the Bible" is nonsense. A person can have both critical thinking skills and faith. That's what I have and you don't.
Of course a person can have both critical thinking skills and faith, and if people really thought critically they would know that there is a God because they would recognize the evidence for God.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Where in the Bible does it say that God is comprised of material tissue?
The Bible says that God is Spirit.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
The canon of revelation I use is not confined to the Bible.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;"

Note that God "has" a body of flesh and bones, not "is" a body. Yes, God is spirit—housed in a tangible body. And so are we, his children. We are also spirit, housed in a body:

"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy."

The bodies we have now, of course, are corruptible. But after death and resurrection, they will be like God's—incorruptible.

Hope that helps.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
@Sgt. Pepper

To add to what I said before about indoctrination, I have never been able to penetrate the impenetrable wall of Christian indoctrination.
Why single out Christians as if no other religious or secular systems are espoused through indoctrination? Just saying. At the same time, not all beliefs are the result of indoctrination, whether Christian in flavor, or otherwise. Would you agree?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
The reason I can understand what the Bible says and means is BECAUSE I was never a Christian. ;)
Christians do not believe what is actually in the Bible, they believe the Christian dogma that the church teaches them to believe.
That is called indoctrination.

I think it's also ironic when they all claim to have "spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit," but yet they clearly contradict each other in both scriptural interpretation and church dogma. Some even use 1 Corinthians 2:14 to brag about their alleged knowledge and understanding of the Bible, but they can be caught misquoting the Bible or expressing a personal belief that is clearly against what is taught in the Bible, such as that God is made up of flesh and blood. It is arrogant, in my opinion, for a Christian to piously use that scripture when speaking to a non-Christian who challenges their belief in the Bible.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why single out Christians as if no other religious or secular systems are espoused through indoctrination? Just saying.
Sure, there are secular systems tat are espoused through indoctrination.
Name some other religions that are espoused through indoctrination.
What other religions indoctrinate their members?
At the same time, not all beliefs are the result of indoctrination, whether Christian in flavor, or otherwise. Would you agree?
No, I don't think that all beliefs are the result of indoctrination, Christian or otherwise.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think it's also ironic when they all claim to have "spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit," but yet they clearly contradict each other in both scriptural interpretation and church dogma.
Of course, it is logically impossible that contradictory beliefs are all coming from the same Holy Spirit, but who needs logic? ;)
 

Ajax

Active Member
Υou are clearly speaking subjectively. If you think that there are falsehoods and contradictions, then you clearly are unable to understand Scripture.
You have it all wrong.. You don't have to look for hidden meanings and interpretation in the Bible. It was written for normal and mostly uneducated people who lived 2500 years ago. In any case, to be able to find any different meanings and interpretations, you have to be intelligent and wise and that's anathema.

Paul wrote "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Jesus also said people must become like a little child to enter the Kingdom of God.

Crafty Paul though had the solution ready..

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Did you have your boarding pass before birth???? No??? Sucks to be you. Got to love predestination. :laughing:
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Sure, there are secular systems tat are espoused through indoctrination.
Name some other religions that are espoused through indoctrination.
What other religions indoctrinate their members?
I'm not sure I'd say the religions indoctrinate, as though the tenets of the faith mandate indoctrination (although there may be some that do!). Leaders indoctrinate, parents, teachers, etc. And my experience in the world leads me to the conclusion that all religions and secular systems are so affected. All that is required to be guilty of indoctrination is pressure or impediments on the individuals to not evaluate, discern and decide for themselves. I wouldn't think this charge would be so controversial that a list needs to be made. Or were you just asking out of curiosity to see if I had a select few in mind?
No, I don't think that all beliefs are the result of indoctrination, Christian or otherwise.
That has been my observation as well.
 
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Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Of course, it is logically impossible that contradictory beliefs are all coming from the same Holy Spirit, but who needs logic? ;)

I consider it a cop-out when Christians try to justify their preferred beliefs by claiming that they're correct in theirs and other Christians who disagree with them are wrong. In fact, I saw it in this thread yesterday when I questioned a Christian member about his beliefs differing from those of other Christians.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is an explanation, however, that CAN be given for why he claims to know a god that might not r doesn't exist (see below).
I see it. A spiritual experience could be due to anything, but that is not how people know God. God can only be known through His Messengers.
Perhaps there is no proof or even good evidence that a god exists because no god exists.
Perhaps there is no proof or even good evidence that God exists because no God exists, that is one possibility, but if you are saying that God does not exist because there is no proof that God exists (the proposition God exists is false because it has not yet been proven true), that is fallacious because it is an argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
  1. true
  2. false
  3. unknown between true or false
  4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

I would say that there is insufficient information to prove the proposition God exists to be either true or false.
However, I believe there is enough evidence to believe that God exists is true.
Here's the problem with faith. It allows one to hold those same conclusions without sufficient evidence to conclude that they are not incorrect.
That is why we should have sufficient evidence, not only faith.
I don't believe that you had asthma severe enough to hospitalize you that was instantly reversed. I'm assuming that you mean admitted as an inpatient for treatment of severe, life-threatening asthma treated with intravenous bronchodilators like aminophylline and not just observed in an ER or getting only medicated mist inhalation therapy. Such a person will remit quickly with minimal intervention at times with or without prayers, but not somebody with severe respiratory distress and significantly reduced blood oxygen levels.

I'm very experienced treating asthma including in ICUs using mechanical ventilators. Nobody goes from that sick to well instantly as you described.
I'll second that since my late husband had severe asthma, for which he was hospitalized on more than one occasion. The first thing they did in the hospital was put him on a nebulizer machine, although I do not recall him ever needing intravenous bronchodilators. After several hospitalizations the doctor ordered nebulizer machines for him to have at home and at work.

His asthma was never reversed, only treated with various medications that kept him alive.
 
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