Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[jimb]

My Christian indoctrination included being taught that I, and other Christians, could have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and always sense God's presence in our lives. However, I never felt anything like that other than having my emotions manipulated while in church, but the sensation quickly faded.

This is tragic. Perhaps you should seek God on your own and not rely on others.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Now you are deflecting...
I never claimed to be an authority on Bible translation.

Are you? If so, please a) list your qualifications (in detail) or b) admit that you are just inventing ideas (without proof or justification). Thank you in advance for your reply.

Yes, I believe that was a deflection. You have, however, demonstrated that you are very knowledgeable about the Bible and understand it quite well.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This is tragic. Perhaps you should seek God on your own and not rely on others.

In your opinion, of course. I, on the other hand, don't consider it tragic, just a total waste of my time. And no, I won't be seeking the Abrahamic God. I've already wasted forty years of my life on it, so I won't be wasting any more time on it. I believe that I'm far better off without it. I don't need or want it.

 

[Ajax]

John 14:10-11, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds."

Clearly, IF THEY HAVE SEEN JESUS, THEY HAVE SEEN GOD!

Pathetic misinterpretation!!!

John 17:20-22 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one"

Are you going to say now that if they see you (a believer), they have seen God???

 

[jimb]

You know that God exists by faith and so do I, but that is not the same as factual knowledge which is provable.

They have seen the image of God, not God. An image is not that which it reflects.

Colossians 1

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Nobody has ever seen God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

So should I believe you or Jesus and/or John?

Jesus said, in John 14:7, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Of course believing in God, the Trinity, the truth of Scripture, eternal life, etc. are all by faith. If they were provable (by human standards), that wouldn't require faith (which is what God requires)

Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Fundamentally, Jesus is God. Anyone who has seen Him has seen God. John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

John 14:7, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

You quote Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature". Why don't you believe it???

 

[jimb]

Pathetic misinterpretation!!!

John 17:20-22 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one"

Are you going to say now that if they see you (a believer), they have seen God???

Are you serious? Jesus is the perfect image of God, the Father. If a person has seen Jesus, they have seen God. Now, if you want to take it to its ultimate meaning: a) If people have seen Jesus, they have seen God, b) I and other born-again Christians are in Christ, c) ergo, if you have seen a believing Christian, you have seen God!

John 17:20-21, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

So if God heard Jesus prayer and accepted it, there is your answer!

Of course, it requires spiritual sight. Some of us have it; some of us don't.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:1-4, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it."

The original word translated as Word, that word was logos. On Goggle it says:

Logos is a Greek word meaning "word, discourse, or reason," and it's the root of logic.

What is logos meaning in the Bible?

Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.” The most famous way the Bible uses logos is in reference to Jesus as the Word, such as in John 1:1 : In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

Everybody seems to assume this "Word" refers to Jesus. I don't think so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Fundamentally, Jesus is God. Anyone who has seen Him has seen God. John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

"I and the Father are one." doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

John 14:7, "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”'

Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Attributes of God, but they have not SEEN GOD.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

You quote Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature". Why don't you believe it???

I believe that Jesus is the image of God because Jesus reflected God's Attributes, such as All-Good, All-Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, but an image is not that which it reflects. For example, humans were created in the image of God but humans are not God.

God is invisible, so how could Jesus be God? Many people saw Jesus.

 

[jimb]

The original word translated as Word, that word was logos. On Goggle it says:

Logos is a Greek word meaning "word, discourse, or reason," and it's the root of logic.

What is logos meaning in the Bible?

Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.” The most famous way the Bible uses logos is in reference to Jesus as the Word, such as in John 1:1 : In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

Everybody seems to assume this "Word" refers to Jesus. I don't think so.

Okay, whatever you say. LOL!

"Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.” The most famous way the Bible uses logos is in reference to Jesus as the Word, such as in John 1:1"

Everybody except you agrees with Google and your declaration that "the most famous way the Bible uses logos is in reference to Jesus as the Word, such as in John 1:1 : In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God."

So you don't agree with your own references???

 

[Ajax]

Are you serious? Jesus is the perfect image of God, the Father. If a person has seen Jesus, they have seen God. Now, if you want to take it to its ultimate meaning: a) If people have seen Jesus, they have seen God, b) I and other born-again Christians are in Christ, c) ergo, if you have seen a believing Christian, you have seen God!

John 17:20-21, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

So if God heard Jesus prayer and accepted it, there is your answer!

Of course, it requires spiritual sight. Some of us have it; some of us don't.

OMG! So many arbitrary thoughts...it's incredible.. Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses..

In this prayer you quoted Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two or more autonomous beings. “To be one” does not mean to be “one and the same”, but it means that Jesus and the believers were following God's orders. And seeing you certainly does not mean we are seeing God, neither that you are God either....

Additionally, if what you wrote above is correct, (...Fundamentally, Jesus is God), then it's a huge contradiction with the following...

John 20:17 " “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God”
Matthew 24.36 “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I”
John 17.3 "Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”
John 5:19 "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing"
Matthew 23:9-10 "And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ."

Jesus himself denies that he is God...now if you know better than Jesus...congratulations!
Also if Jesus is God and had made a plan to be crucified in order to remove human sins, then he could not object to his crucifixion and call on his Father "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me".

If you insist you are right, I will sent you the Paul verses denying that Jesus is God.
It's hilarious to say that there are no contradictions in the Bible.. And what is funny is that the most contradictions are in the Gospel of John which you present as evidence of Jesus divinity.

 

[jimb]

"I and the Father are one." doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Attributes of God, but they have not SEEN GOD.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

I believe that Jesus is the image of God because Jesus reflected God's Attributes, such as All-Good, All-Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, but an image is not that which it reflects. For example, humans were created in the image of God but humans are not God.

God is invisible, so how could Jesus be God? Many people saw Jesus.

It is astonishing to me that you and others don't understand what the Bible clearly says, probably because the Bible communicates spiritual truths.
Do you know what "I and my Father are one" means? It means that they are both God. John 1:1 clearly says that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." There is no interpretation needed; it is clearly stated that Jesus was (and is) God.
"I and my Father are one" means exactly the same thing! It doesn't mean His acts and doings are identical with the Will of the Father.

John 14:7 clearly says that if a person has seen Jesus, s/he has seen God! "If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” It doesn't mean that a person has seen an image; it means that s/he has seen the real thing. => If a person has seen Jesus, s/he has seen God!!!

Regarding John 1:18... That verse was written before 14:7. If you take single verses out of context, you are opening the door to misinterpretation, i.e., you want the Bible to say what you have predetermined what it says. So you make the Bible agree with you rather than you agreeing with the Bible.

Jesus is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:1 : In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God."

What is the meaning of the logos?

A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.

Glossary Definition: Logos - PBS​

 

[Esteban X]

There is no such thing as God the Father and God the Son. There is only God the Father.
The Son is not the Father.

The following translations of john 1:18 have been altered by Trinitarian Christians in order to make Jesus into God.
This is despicable, not to mention completely illogical!

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.

ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.

CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.

By altering the translations, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.

The following translations of John 1:18 are correct.
In short, no one has ever seen God, but Jesus, who was the Son of God, has declared God and made God known. Jesus has shown is what God is like.

John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway

CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.

KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.

NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.

RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.

I don't know if this explains anything but it's a pretty picture

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know if this explains anything but it's a pretty picture

View attachment 89925

Are you a Trinitarian?

I agree that:

The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit not the Son.
The Father is God.

I do not agree that:

God is the Son, or that the Son is God.
God is the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is God.

I believe:

The Son is a Manifestation of God sent by God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God whose luminous rays emanated from the Son.

 

[Ajax]

Do you know what "I and my Father are one" means? It means that they are both God.

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us"

OK, so according to your thinking, all believers are Gods, if they are also ONE with God and Jesus..., right?

What about the verses where Jesus denies that he is God?

The problem with you is that you have come here believing that you are infallible, the holder of absolute truth, but you don't dare answering slightly difficult questions. That probably means you are not here to discuss but rather to declare your infallible opinion and you hate it when people present evidence contrary to your (infallible again) belief.

 

[Tomef]

I don't know if this explains anything but it's a pretty picture

View attachment 89925

I can see how if a father and son drank enough spirit, they might start feeling like god.

 

[jimb]

OMG! So many arbitrary thoughts...it's incredible.. Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses..

In this prayer you quoted Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two or more autonomous beings. “To be one” does not mean to be “one and the same”, but it means that Jesus and the believers were following God's orders. And seeing you certainly does not mean we are seeing God, neither that you are God either....

Additionally, if what you wrote above is correct, (...Fundamentally, Jesus is God), then it's a huge contradiction with the following...

John 20:17 " “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God”
Matthew 24.36 “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”
John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I”
John 17.3 "Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”
John 5:19 "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing"
Matthew 23:9-10 "And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ."

Jesus himself denies that he is God...now if you know better than Jesus...congratulations!
Also if Jesus is God and had made a plan to be crucified in order to remove human sins, then he could not object to his crucifixion and call on his Father "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me".

If you insist you are right, I will sent you the Paul verses denying that Jesus is God.
It's hilarious to say that there are no contradictions in the Bible.. And what is funny is that the most contradictions are in the Gospel of John which you present as evidence of Jesus divinity.

a) If you don't accept what Scripture clearly says, there is no point in discussing anything with you. Example: "Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses."

b) If you can't accept what the Bible clearly says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and claim that there are contradictions because you lack understanding, you need to read it more carefully.

I won't communicate with anyone who indulges in insults. You're on "ignore".

 

[jimb]

"I and the Father are one." doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Attributes of God, but they have not SEEN GOD.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

I believe that Jesus is the image of God because Jesus reflected God's Attributes, such as All-Good, All-Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient, but an image is not that which it reflects. For example, humans were created in the image of God but humans are not God.

God is invisible, so how could Jesus be God? Many people saw Jesus.

"If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:7 That's what the Bible clearly says, so why should I accept what you say?

Do you know what "I and the Father are one" means? It means they are ONE! Not two, not identical, not that they "share the Holy Spirit (whatever that means), but one.

 

[jimb]

What is the meaning of the logos?

A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.

Glossary Definition: Logos - PBS​

Logos: The Lexham Bible Dictionary defines logos (λόγος) as “a concept word in the Bible symbolic of the nature and function of Jesus Christ. It is also used to refer to the revelation of God in the world.” Logos is a noun that occurs 330 times in the Greek New Testament. Of course, the word doesn’t always—in fact, it usually doesn’t—carry symbolic meaning. Its most basic and common meaning is simply “word,” “speech,” “utterance,” or “message.”

 

[jimb]

Are you a Trinitarian?

I agree that:

The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit not the Son.
The Father is God.

I do not agree that:

God is the Son, or that the Son is God.
God is the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is God.

I believe:

The Son is a Manifestation of God sent by God.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God whose luminous rays emanated from the Son.

It's sad that you don't understand what the Bible clearly says about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all aspects of the one God. There is only one God.