Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Trailblazer]

I consider it a cop-out when Christians try to justify their preferred beliefs by claiming that they're correct in theirs and other Christians who disagree with them are wrong.

I don't consider it a cop-out as much as I consider it arrogant, but what else can they do to try to justify their beliefs?

 

[Unfettered]

I consider it a cop-out when Christians try to justify their preferred beliefs by claiming that they're correct in theirs and other Christians who disagree with them are wrong. In fact, I saw it in this thread yesterday when I questioned a Christian member about his beliefs differing from those of other Christians.

I don't consider it a cop-out as much as I consider it arrogant, but what else can they do to justify their beliefs?

Christians ought not to be blanketed with motives any more than any other group. One can refute what one understands to be error with motivations other than superiority or evasiveness. No need to be sloppy.

 

[Ajax]

I consider it a cop-out when Christians try to justify their preferred beliefs by claiming that they're correct in theirs and other Christians who disagree with them are wrong. In fact, I saw it in this thread yesterday when I questioned a Christian member about his beliefs differing from those of other Christians.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians ought not to be blanketed with motives any more than any other group. One can refute what one understands to be error with other motivations than superiority or evasiveness. No need to be sloppy.

This is not about motives, it is about claims, claims to be 'led' by the Holy Spirit.
How is it possible that all Christians are led by the same Holy Spirit when they hold different beliefs, beliefs that contradict each other?

 

[Unfettered]

View attachment 89885

Jesus would probably laugh first, then redirect and teach with patience.

 

[Unfettered]

This is not about motives, it is about claims, claims to be 'led' by the Holy Spirit.
How is it possible that all Christians are led by the same Holy Spirit when they hold different beliefs, beliefs that contradict each other?

Beliefs are never "inspired." Beliefs are personal; they are the product of consciousness and agency based on one's understanding at a given moment. Spiritual truth and spiritual knowledge—these are inspired. They belong to God and are dispensed according to his judgment through the means he established. And, as Paul taught (because he had experience with revelation and knew what he was talking about), there is no other way to obtain spiritual truth or spiritual knowledge but through revelation. That's the whole point of Paul was teaching, as highlighted in the OP.

Back to the point, then, if two Christians hold different beliefs that they each claim derive from truth inspired by the Spirit of God, any number of scenarios could explain the disparity, none of which will convict the Spirit of God, for they believe what they choose, based on their understanding, which may be flawed. If one wants to know whose beliefs conform to inspired truth, one must be receptive to the Spirit of God himself. In the end, all God has to work with down here are imperfect people who are influenced by all kinds of forces (personal experience, personality, family, society, culture, stresses, disinformation, flattery, bribery, etc.); we ought to be wise enough to expect imperfection amongst ourselves. God sure does, which is why he directs us all to keep focus on him, why he authorizes messengers to be his spokesmen (prophets)—to keep things organized, to clarify when there are disagreements, and to keep redirecting our focus back to God when we start looking to imperfect people (including ourselves!) as the source of truth—and why he offers each of us a direct channel of communication with him to confirm that we're not being led astray.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

Beliefs are never "inspired." Beliefs are personal; they are the product of consciousness and agency based on one's understanding at a given moment. Spiritual truth and spiritual knowledge—these are inspired. They belong to God and are dispensed according to his judgment through the means he established.

Okay, I understand the difference.
My next question is how you know if you are inspired, I mean how do you know if God has dispensed spiritual truth and spiritual knowledge to you?

Back to the point, then, if two Christians hold different beliefs that they each claim derive from truth inspired by the Spirit of God, any number of scenarios could explain the disparity, none of which will convict the Spirit of God, for they believe what they choose, based on their understanding, which may be flawed.

I agree that if two Christians hold different beliefs that they each claim derive from truth inspired by the Spirit of God, any number of scenarios could explain the disparity, none of which will convict the Spirit of God, for they believe what they choose, based on their understanding, which may be flawed.

If one wants to know whose beliefs conform to inspired truth, one must be receptive to the Spirit of God himself.

We are back to square one. "must be receptive to the Spirit of God himself."

How do you know who is receptive to the Spirit of God and who is not?

In the end, all God has to work with down here is imperfect people who are influenced by all kinds of forces (personal experience, personality, family, society, culture, stresses, disinformation, flattery, bribery, etc.); we ought to be wise enough to expect imperfection amongst ourselves. God sure does, which is why he directs us all to keep focus on him, why he authorizes messengers to be his spokesmen (prophets)—to keep things organized, to clarify when there are disagreements, and to keep redirecting our focus back to God when we start looking to imperfect people as the source of truth

I agree with all of the above.

—and why he offers each of us a direct channel of communication with him to confirm that we're not being led astray.

I disagree. I do not believe that there is any direct channel of communication from God to ordinary humans. I believe that the only a direct channel of communication is from God to Messengers of God. As you said, people are imperfect, so it makes no sense that humans could receive direct communication from God and understand it. Messengers of God are both divine and human so they can perfectly understand communication from God an reveal what they receive from God to ordinary humans.

Try to be logical. How do you think that you could ever know that you had a direct channel of communication with him to confirm that you not being led astray? You could never know that, you could only believe it.

My belief as a Baha'i is that God never communicates directly to any ordinary humans. This position is supported by the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

The Baha'i belief is that God only communicates to His Messengers, who are pure and stainless Souls who have a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 66

 

[Unfettered]

Okay, I understand the difference.

That's all I'm after.

My next question is how you know if you are inspired, I mean how do you know if God has dispensed spiritual truth and spiritual knowledge to you?

We are back to square one. "must be receptive to the Spirit of God himself."
***
How do you know who is receptive to the Spirit of God and who is not?
***
I do not believe that there is a direct channel of communication from God to ordinary humans. I believe that the only a direct channel of communication is from God to Messengers of God. As you said, people are imperfect, so it makes no sense that humans could receive direct communication from God and understand it. Messengers of God are both divine and human so they can perfectly understand communication from God an reveal what they receive from God to ordinary humans.

Clearly, your understanding differs from mine, which is why you cannot agree with those portions you noted in my earlier post. But I'll do my best to address your question.

First of, I know that God communicates to ordinary humans. I have experienced it. In fact, within a certain framework that I'll not go into right now, we all have. Every human being. We are, after all, offspring of God. We are his children, created after his image and for the same purpose—to have joy. He is a being of spirit, light, truth, intelligence, goodness and love; so are we. That our Father would not communicate directly with us is, to me, an absurd thought, just as it would be absurd for me to not communicate directly with my own children.

As for the nuts and bolts of it, God hasn't said that a singular thing or test determines communication from him. He has given what I would call "keys" to help us learn to hear his voice—and some that help us winnow out communications that are not from him.

He has described the process as one that takes effort. To one person who was frustrated that he hadn't received the guidance he sought God revealed (through his chosen prophet at the time):

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-8)

To another, to whom God showed great things, God said, "Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart" (1 Nephi 2:19), indicating that we must be humble and not demanding, and that we may have to wait until he judges that we are prepared for the truth or knowledge we're after.

He has said that he communicates to our hearts and minds (Doctrine and Covenants 8:2), and that we can know by attendant feelings of goodness, peace, etc., or by their absence, as in feeling unsettled about a thing we're seeking to know about (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8 - 9) One significant key is whether or not the thing revealed is good vs not good:

"But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. (Book of Mormon Moroni 7:13)

Another key is whether or not the communication edifies us (inspires us in a constructive direction): "that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness." (Doctrine and Covenants 50:23)

Another key is whether or not we are being inspired for choices not ours to make: "For, behold, these things have not been appointed unto him…For all things must be done in order, and by common consent…" (Doctrine and Covenants 28:12-13) IE, if we receive revelation on behalf of someone who has not consented to be subject to our counsel, it's not likely the communication came from God.

Another key is if the communication is attended by one or fruits of the spirit, or when we, ourselves, are in a state consistent with them: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance" (Galatians 5:22 - 23)

Another key is that God's promises do not go unfulfilled: "31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled? I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing. Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above." (Doctrine and Covenants 58:31 - 33)

Another key, which is very useful when guarding against deception coming from others, is that of mutual edification and equality, especially as we grow in our ability to receive revelation:

"Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together." (Doctrine and Covenants 50:17 - 22)

I could go on. You should see patterns here. One pattern is that there is no absolute, singluar way that all communications from God are confirmed. Another pattern is that his communications usually point not to what we want, but to what is right, good, constructive, within our purview, etc. Another pattern is one of revelation following, or attending, patience and humility. If God's words are always fulfilled, and if we feel we've received inspiration but are not sure, we may have to be patient before the word is fulfilled and complete discernment enjoyed. Though, the more we live in these patterns and the more revelation we receive and discern, and the more we become like God, and the more we begin to think and understand as he does, the easier it becomes for us to discern his communications.

Anyway, that's probably enough for now. There's a great deal more we could talk about, if there is interest.

 

[Trailblazer]

First of, I know that God communicates to ordinary humans. I have experienced it. In fact, within a certain framework that I'll not go into right now, we all have. Every human being. We are, after all, offspring of God. We are his children, created after his image and for the same purpose—to have joy. He is a being of spirit, light, truth, intelligence, goodness and love; so are we. That our Father would not communicate directly with us is, to me, an absurd thought, just as it would be absurd for me to not communicate directly with my own children.

Whether God communicates to ordinary humans all depends upon what you mean by communicate. I believe that God can inspire us and guide us, but I do not believe that God communicates messages to ordinary humans as He does to His Messengers.

I do not believe that humans are literally God's children because God is not a biological entity who has offspring. That God would communicate directly with us is, to me, an absurd thought. It is not comparable to a human communicating with his children since God is not a human!

To compare God to a human and expect God to act like a human is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

False equivalence - Wikipedia

 

[Unfettered]

Whether God communicates to ordinary humans all depends upon what you mean by communicate. I believe that God can inspire us and guide us, but I do not believe that God communicates messages to ordinary humans as He does to His Messengers.

Understood. So our beliefs have some crossover, but not full harmony.

I do not believe that humans are literally God's children because God is not a biological entity who has offspring. That God would communicate directly with us is, to me, an absurd thought. It is not comparable to a human communicating with his children since God is not a human!

Understood. I could have better articulated this detail on my part, but it's clear that we understand the nature of God to be different.

To compare God to a human and expect God to act like a human is the fallacy of false equivalence.

In the case of the theology I understand, it is not a false equivalence at all. The claim of a corporeal God is not based on reasoning, but from the testimony of Joseph Smith, who testified that he saw God the Father, and that he has an "exalted," physical body. Just to clarify.

Thank you for sharing, and for listening.

 

[Unfettered]

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

The Baha'i belief is that God only communicates to His Messengers, who are pure and stainless Souls who have a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 66

I wanted to comment on this, but didn't previously because I was answering your question. The description here of the Messengers is interesting in that I understand every human being on earth to have a dual nature similar to that which is described above: a mortal body, a product of the physical world; and an eternal spirit, comprised of the same spirit material that comprises God's spirit body (light, truth and intelligence). Of course, where mortals are concerned, neither of these is yet purified and refined or exalted as is God the Father.

Just thought there were some interesting similarities.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the case of the theology I understand, it is not a false equivalence at all. The claim of a corporeal God is not based on reasoning, but from the testimony of Joseph Smith, who testified that he saw God the Father, and that he has an "exalted," physical body. Just to clarify.

Okay, fair enough, but Baha'i theology is very different.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

God in the Baháʼí Faith

 

[Unfettered]

Okay, fair enough, but Baha'i theology is very different.

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

God in the Baháʼí Faith

Yes, I had understood this before from what you'd written. I was only clarifying that what I believe was not the result of reasoning or deduction. I was not re-stating to correct your understanding.

God bless.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wanted to comment on this, but didn't previously because I was answering your question. The description here of the Messengers is interesting in that I understand every human being on earth to have a dual nature similar to that which is described above: a mortal body, a product of the physical world; and an eternal spirit, comprised of the same spirit material that comprises God's spirit body (light, truth and intelligence). Of course, where mortals are concerned, neither of these is yet purified and refined or exalted as is God the Father.

Just thought there were some interesting similarities.

I agree that every human being on earth is born with two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature. We all have free will, so we all choose to act according to one of these two natures. By our choices and ensuing behavior, we start to differentiate ourselves, and we wind up on a continuum, more or less spiritual.

Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect man expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his spiritual nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature.

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

However, I believe that the Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man, because they alone have a divine mind that is capable of understanding communication from God through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Unfettered]

I agree that every human being on earth is born with two natures, a spiritual or higher nature and a material or lower nature. We all have free will, so we all choose to act according to one of these two natures. By our choices and ensuing behavior, we start to differentiate ourselves, and we wind up on a continuum, more or less spiritual.

Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect man expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his spiritual nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature.

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

However, I believe that the Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man, because they alone have divine mind that is capable of understanding communication from God through the Holy Spirit.

Understood. More similarities; more nuanced differences.

 

[Viker]

"Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation"

How convenient.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation"

How convenient.

And how untrue.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Your last two sentences (only) are valid.

So the others are invalid? Do you mean untruthful, or what?

Do you think I’m wrong in stating that the majority members in christendom have been involved in killing their brothers?

In World Wars I & II — and for centuries prior — Catholics on both sides killed each other, and Protestants did the same.

Is that following Christ, the Prince of Peace?

Now don’t misunderstand me, I’m not discrediting the Bible; & the statements made by Jesus are the truth. But early on, Christianity got hijacked by the foretold apostasy. (Acts 20:29,30,38) It makes sense that, out of all religions, Christianity would be the main target of Satan, whom Jesus called “the ruler / prince of the world.” — John 12:31; see 1 John 5:19.

And today, there are over 30,000 different sects professing Christianity.

But it boils down to obedience… Jesus said, “You are my friends if you do what I command”, at John 14:15 & John 15:14. What if they don’t do what He commands? (See Matthew 7:21-23).

Have a good night, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And how untrue.

That’s what Jesus said, though. Luke 10:21.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If you think that there are falsehoods and contradictions, then you clearly are unable to understand Scripture.

I'd say that the opposite is more correct. If you CAN'T see the falsehoods and contradictions, then you aren't reading the words dispssionately and open-mindedly. They're very easy for disinterested readers to see.

Your sentence, "Sadly, this dogma is the biggest crock in all of human history and the largest contributor to the downfall of humanity, at least thus far" is beyond negative. I will never understand how anyone can make such a hateful statement.

Most Christians see their religion as a force for good and its ethical precepts exemplary. Most atheistic humanists and all antitheists disagree. Once again, we have no reason to expect a man to see what he has a stake in NOT seeing.

What makes her comment hateful? That she doesn't respect Christian doctrine? That she considers it harmful? That she expressed such things hyperbolically. She might be right, but for me, it's enough to say that this religion has done much more harm than good and is a net burden on the world. Should I put myself on ignore now?

I would admonish you to take heed of the kind of feedback you're getting. I don't expect you to change your opinions, but if you get tired of so much rebuking and blowback coming from so many sources, maybe you should reconsider what you share and how you share it.

As a result, I am putting you on "ignore".

I'll be you're the first person ever to put her on ignore. Ask yourself why you are so offended by her comment that you unwilling to read any others from her, and why you announced it.

Here is what the Bible says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1) Since that is true, evidence is not required.

Evidence IS required to have justified belief (knowledge).

A person can have both critical thinking skills and faith.

Yes, but beliefs are either the product of one or the other, not both at the same time regarding the same belief. All beliefs are either justified by the standards of critical thought and the evaluation of evidence, or they are believed by faith, and n belief is both or neither.

since you lack faith, you have no understanding of what it actually is.

I know exactly what faith is. It's the willingness to believe as true that which is not known as true.

So, you think that I'm lying???

No, but I don't believe that you are correct. I think you're unwittingly exaggerating what happened to you.

I don't care what you've experienced or think you know.

That's not surprising. It's also what I just told you about what you think you experienced and learned in a hospital during an asthma attack.

But you should care about what I have experienced and think I know about asthma. I completed a career in internal medicine, and managed dozens if not hundreds of admissions for "status asthmaticus": https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22794687/#:~:text=Abstract,requires immediate recognition and treatment.

You are clearly incapable of true understanding! That's why you can't understand my description of my spiritual experience.

I understand you completely. I just think you're wrong about what happened.

You are spiritually blind!!!

You are intellectually blind.

God is God. His existence doesn't depend on whether people believe that He exists or not?

Gods don't become real because you believe in them.