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Union of Science and Religion

Formula of Thing; ¬(x∈∅)



nothing is nothing

Logical Tautology (1); nothing is nothing

Four senses of “is” are meant here; of identity, of implication, of predication, and of existence;

Corollary (1); nothing equals nothing

Corollary (2); nothing implies nothing

Corollary (3); nothing has the property of nothing

Corollary (4); nothing exists as nothing



something is self-causal

proof;

Logical Tautology (2); nothing equals nothing and nothing implies nothing

ergo nothing is not implicated with something

ergo everything is implicated with something

Note; Two or more things that are solely and exclusively implicated with each other can be understood as one thing implicated with itself.

ergo something is self-implicated

Note; Implication suggests causation and is correlation. When it is impossible for there to be missing variables correlation necessarily is causation. Since everything is implicated here it is impossible for there to be missing variables.

ergo nothing is not causal with something

ergo everything is causal with something

Note; Two or more things that are solely and exclusively causal with each other can be understood as one thing causal with itself.

ergo something is self-causal Q.E.D.

Note; Self-causal means self-deterministic or teleological. Self-causation is consciousness.



something is self-descriptive

proof;

Logical Tautology (3); nothing equals nothing and nothing has the property of nothing

ergo Nothing is nondescript. - Something is self-descriptive.

Note; Endomorphic self-description is self-manifestation.




something is essentially existence

proof;

Logical Tautology (4); nothing equals nothing and nothing exists as nothing

ergo Nothing is nonexistence. - Something is essentially existence.




everything is made of something

proof;

Logical Tautology (5); nothing implies nothing and nothing has the property of nothing

ergo Nothing is made of nothing. - Everything is made of something.




something is the cause of all things

proof;

Logical Tautology (6); nothing implies nothing and nothing exists as nothing

ergo Nothing is the cause of nothing. - Something is the cause of all things.




something has always existed everywhere

proof;

Logical Tautology (7); nothing has the property of nothing and nothing exists as nothing

ergo Nowhere and at no time has nothing existed. - Something has always existed everywhere.




conclusion

One thing is self-causal, self-descriptive, has the essence of existence, that everything is made of, that is the cause of all things, and has always existed everywhere.

Proof--The true definition of a thing neither involves nor expresses anything beyond the particular characteristics of the thing defined. From this it follows that--No definition implies or expresses a certain number of individuals, inasmuch as it expresses nothing beyond the particular characteristics of the thing defined. There is necessarily for each individual existent thing a cause why it should exist [T6]. This cause of existence must either be contained in the particular characteristics and definition of the thing defined [T2], or must be postulated apart from such definition. If a given number of individual things exist, there must be some cause for the existence of exactly that number, neither more nor less. Consequently, the cause of each of them, must necessarily be sought externally to each individual thing. It therefore follows that, everything which may consist of several individuals must have an external cause. And, as it has been shown already that existence appertains to the particular characteristics of something [T4], existence must necessarily be included in its definition; and from its definition alone existence must be deducible. But from its definition we cannot infer the existence of several things; therefore it follows that there is only one thing that is self-causal, self-descriptive, has the essence of existence, that everything is made of, that is the cause of all things, and has always existed everywhere. Q.E.D.

Note; The one thing is omniscient (self-causal, self-descriptive), monopantheistic (essence of existence, that everything is made of), omnipotent (cause of all things), eternal (has always existed), and omnipresent (everywhere). By virtue of the identity of indiscernibles the one thing is the Divine. Therefore the Divine necessarily exists. Q.E.D.
 

Beyondo

Active Member
Formula of Thing; ¬(x∈∅)
Note; The one thing is omniscient (self-causal, self-descriptive), monopantheistic (essence of existence, that everything is made of), omnipotent (cause of all things), eternal (has always existed), and omnipresent (everywhere). By virtue of the identity of indiscernibles the one thing is the Divine. Therefore the Divine necessarily exists. Q.E.D.

But the divine doesn't necessarily have to be conscious does it?

Such a divine entity could be as described here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...37-can-universe-virtual-without-designer.html

God is chaos...:cross2:
 
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But the divine doesn't necessarily have to be conscious does it?

Self-causation is consciousness.

Which means the Divine is consciousness itself.


Such a divine entity could be as described here:

Very good, you have part of the answer.

I have discovered how these standing waves are created, maintained, and how they produce gravity and zero-point energy. I have written about it in another place. Let me know if you are interested.


the force of creation is chaos...:cross2:

That is certainly part of it.

But as you even point out, the order is created from the chaos.

Well, guess what? The order polarizes the chaos!

From order to chaos, and chaos to order there is a quasi-cybernetic loop which produces the evolution of the universe!
 

Beyondo

Active Member
Self-causation is consciousness.

Which means the Divine is consciousness itself.

Self-causation is not consciousness. One of the points brought up in the thread I sited was how the waves are without cause, or without a creator. The premise of the idea exploits the simplicity of the concept of standing waves. The attributes of the waves, states that are either 1 or 0, explain the behavior by which chaos is derived, that leads to a chaotic system that ultimately converges on order. Standing waves are not conscious but they could build smart pieces of a computational system that could lead to creating a universe. Its like computational amino acids that end up building the DNA of physics...

I have discovered how these standing waves are created, maintained, and how they produce gravity and zero-point energy. I have written about it in another place. Let me know if you are interested.

As I sited above the waves are not created, they are the eternal stuff of reality.
 
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S-word

Well-Known Member
I longed to hear someone express the words I couldn't speak
Reveal to me the mysteries of Lifes deepest secrets
So I saught the men of science who claim God's body has no mind
They say the universe is living but will die one day in time.
So then the men of piousness, with them I sat me down
But they say God has no body, those men in flowing gowns.
Then finally in silent dream, Just me and "Who I Am"
We floated on lifes living steam, with a pen held in my hand
T'was then the veil began to tear in this temple that is me
And there within God's sanctuary, the one I will be did I see.....By S-word.
 
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darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
They say the universe is living but will die one day in time.

Thermodynamics: energy will be converted to work causing the heat death of the universe.

Off topic: how are things after the cyclone up North? Hope everything is ok for you.
 

S-word

Well-Known Member
Thermodynamics: energy will be converted to work causing the heat death of the universe.

Off topic: how are things after the cyclone up North? Hope everything is ok for you.

Thanks for asking, yea everythings OK, bit of a fizzer really, just a few trees over, around our area anyways.

As it is written, "For the heavens shall roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise and the elemetment becoming so excited will bur up and fall as massive columns of fire beyound all measure in height and depth into the Great abyss, where all that is will be condensed back inot the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity which will be spatially separated once again by another Big Bang, and this living universal body will be resurrected again to continue on in the eternal process of growth or revelation.

science is just beginning to come to terms with an eternal cyclic universe, which has been taught by the different religions of the world for thousands of years.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The nights and days of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that precedes the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period of the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Origen, , was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.
 
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darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Thanks for asking, yea everythings OK, bit of a fizzer really, just a few trees over, around our area anyways.

Thats good to hear.

As it is written, "For the heavens shall roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise and the elemetment becoming so excited will bur up and fall as massive columns of fire beyound all measure in height and depth into the Great abyss, where all that is will be condensed back inot the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity which will be spatially separated once again by another Big Bang, and this living universal body will be resurrected again to continue on in the eternal process of growth or revelation.

Sounds like what will happen when the universe uses all of its free energy, well, except for the bit about resurection. Belief in the divine may allow one to believe it possible, but nothing other than scripture or the ignorant would ever suggest it so.

science is just beginning to come to terms with an eternal cyclic universe, which has been taught by the different religions of the world for thousands of years.

There is no evidence to suggest a cyclic universe. We cannot trace our origions past the moment of creation and probably never will.

Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

Many things in our natural world are cyclic, even down to the atomic level (chemical bonding). However, it is a big jump to suggest our very existance as a race-planet-galaxy-universe is indeed cyclic.
Its similar to God theories, they're entirely possible and irrefutable either way.

The nights and days of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that precedes the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

I see, i have never heard creation put that way before, or represented that way.

Unfortunately, we will have to wait 1 billion years and survive an epic cataclysmic event to see what really happens ;)

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period of the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

So in the bible it suggests one universe descends into another? I find it interesting that cosmology and astronomy were even mentioned seriously in the bible. A lot of pain has been caused by these two branches of "science."

Origen, , was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

Interesting concept. The only works i have read of that period achieved nothing but to make out Emperor Constantine I into some Godlike figure he clearly was not :p
 
Self-causation is not consciousness.

Give an example of consciousness that is not self-causation.


One of the points brought up in the thread I sited was how the waves are without cause, or without a creator.

You are confusing "no external cause" with no cause at all.

To say that something has no cause is to say that there is no reason by which it exists as it does.

But you clearly describe how these waves interact. If you look up modern physics you will find this concept called "self-interaction".

That your theory says there is no cause, means you claim you cannot understand these waves!


The premise of the idea exploits the simplicity of the concept of standing waves. The attributes of the waves, states that are either 1 or 0, explain the behavior by which chaos is derived, that leads to a chaotic system that ultimately converges on order.

Are these waves made of energy?

Is the order; FORM of energy?

i.e. is the chaos standing waves TRANSFORMING into order FORMs of energy???

Then the question is; do FORMs of energy create standing waves. Look in your modern physics, the answer is YES.

So, the order-chaos is a quasi-cybernetic loop; showing how the chaos is self-causal.


Standing waves are not conscious but they could build smart pieces of a computational system that could lead to creating a universe. Its like computational amino acids that end up building the DNA of physics...

I didn't say they are conscious. I said they are consciousness itself!


As I sited above the waves are not created, they are the eternal stuff of reality.

You are thinking of the waves as monads?

I think of the transformatives substance; namely energy as more fundimental than it's expressions; waves!

Waves, can be created, and destroyed. But energy cannot. This is a scientific fact.

So, your theory is no scientific.
 

IndieVisible

Official Party Crasher
You know I had many discussions on what God might be or not be and I remember speaking to a atheist friend who asked how do I know god is nothing?

I don't know.

All I know is God is beyond my understanding. Could be nothing.

Then I asked my friend then in that case how does he know he does not actually believe in God?

He didn't know.
 

Beyondo

Active Member
Give an example of consciousness that is not self-causation.

Human beings...

You are confusing "no external cause" with no cause at all.

To say that something has no cause is to say that there is no reason by which it exists as it does.

Not at all. To say something has a cause implies it was created. Now the standing waves I describe have attributes that explain their behavior, ergo the cause and effect of a standing wave system, which answer why the system exists as it does.

But you clearly describe how these waves interact. If you look up modern physics you will find this concept called "self-interaction".

That your theory says there is no cause, means you claim you cannot understand these waves!

Exactly, the ability to perceive the waves is not necessarily possible. Its as if you were in a computer game, the characters in the game may not be able to perceive the hardware that creates their reality.



Are these waves made of energy?

Is the order; FORM of energy?

i.e. is the chaos standing waves TRANSFORMING into order FORMs of energy???

Then the question is; do FORMs of energy create standing waves. Look in your modern physics, the answer is YES.

No they are not energy in the sense that physics equates energy. The waves are elements who's attributes are perpetual. By virtue of their interactions do we get the effects of our perceived reality and the effect of energy.

I think of the transformatives substance; namely energy as more fundimental than it's expressions; waves!

Waves, can be created, and destroyed. But energy cannot. This is a scientific fact.

So, your theory is no scientific.

Well the conservation of energy rule works well at the gauge level but not necessarily at the quantum level, e.g. quantum tunneling and/or zero point energy. But this has nothing to do with the waves I'm talking about. These standing waves have basically three attributes, two states and hyper dimensional volume. These properties are not created they are just there. This is no different than electrons absorbing photons, there is no explanation as to why electrons can do so, they just can.

The scarce resource are the standing waves themselves which produces a conservation of computational power. So in some sense the system has a energy like demand based on informational processing needs to produce a universe.

The concept is a hypothesis based on mathematical principles and explains features of matter that physicists have declared there is no need to explain,e.g.

1. Matter transforming into photons(Energy) E = mc^2 describes the relationship but doesn't explain how it happens.

2. Particles that can extend fields.

3. Duality of matter as particle and wave.

4. Particle intelligence that can decipher what kind of photon it has absorbed and change its behavior accordingly.

5. Why reality conforms to mathematics.

Just to list a few.

So in a nut shell the standing waves are not based on effects we measure such as mass and energy. In fact those properties are created as a product of the virtual reality.
 
Human beings...

Human beings aren't self-causal?

Do you assume humans are like deterministic robots?

Or do humans have a self-deterministic side?



Not at all. To say something has a cause implies it was created. Now the standing waves I describe have attributes that explain their behavior, ergo the cause and effect of a standing wave system, which answer why the system exists as it does.

"exists as it does" implies that it changes the way it exists on some level; something is being created (namely the new state that it is existing as)


Exactly, the ability to perceive the waves is not necessarily possible. Its as if you were in a computer game, the characters in the game may not be able to perceive the hardware that creates their reality.

No they are not energy in the sense that physics equates energy. The waves are elements who's attributes are perpetual. By virtue of their interactions do we get the effects of our perceived reality and the effect of energy.

Well the conservation of energy rule works well at the gauge level but not necessarily at the quantum level, e.g. quantum tunneling and/or zero point energy. But this has nothing to do with the waves I'm talking about. These standing waves have basically three attributes, two states and hyper dimensional volume. These properties are not created they are just there. This is no different than electrons absorbing photons, there is no explanation as to why electrons can do so, they just can.

The scarce resource are the standing waves themselves which produces a conservation of computational power. So in some sense the system has a energy like demand based on informational processing needs to produce a universe.

The concept is a hypothesis based on mathematical principles and explains features of matter that physicists have declared there is no need to explain,e.g.

1. Matter transforming into photons(Energy) E = mc^2 describes the relationship but doesn't explain how it happens.

2. Particles that can extend fields.

3. Duality of matter as particle and wave.

4. Particle intelligence that can decipher what kind of photon it has absorbed and change its behavior accordingly.

5. Why reality conforms to mathematics.

Just to list a few.

So in a nut shell the standing waves are not based on effects we measure such as mass and energy. In fact those properties are created as a product of the virtual reality.


There is no need for me to argue with you any further about your ideas, because we are not playing by the same rules.

But, I would like to point you to Christopher Langan's "Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe".
 

Beyondo

Active Member
Human beings aren't self-causal?

Do you assume humans are like deterministic robots?

Or do humans have a self-deterministic side?

Humans are composed of single cell life, so to ask if humans are self causal is equivalent to asking if an amoeba is self causal. Human beings are products of gauge processes that are remarkably deterministic. What you consider to be self causation is actually an agenda of survival, no different than any other form of life on the planet.
 
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