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Universal human rights: nonsense on stilts.

The concept of universal human rights is nonsense.

A right can be given by a law-making body.
The absence of a law against something means that it is a right until a law against it is introduced.

That is all a right amounts to. Everything else described as 'my right' is a want.

As more specific rights are introduced in legislation, you will get a point where Right A and Right B clash, so one of them will have to give way to the other, making it not 'universal'.

I throw down the gauntlet to anyone willing to defend the idea of universal human rights as being anything other than wishful thinking.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A law making body can only recognize rights. To imagine it can create rights is ridiculous, though some do so imagine. I refer to negative rights such as the right not to be interfered with in some way. These are plain from the nature of what is required to live and to do other things such as to try to raise happy children. If the government recognizes that people must live and must try to raise happy children then it at least in part recognizes our right to do so, however our right to do so is implicit in our human nature. Without living and trying to raise happy children we cannot thrive. Then the government is worthless, so it must recognize our rights or be useless.
 
The question of the legitimacy of government is irrelevant to my original post.

This is nothing to do with where law-making bodies get their authority from or where anyone thinks they should. It is to do with the fact that law-making bodies exist, whether you want them to or not.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The concept of universal human rights is nonsense.

A right can be given by a law-making body.
The absence of a law against something means that it is a right until a law against it is introduced.

That is all a right amounts to. Everything else described as 'my right' is a want.

As more specific rights are introduced in legislation, you will get a point where Right A and Right B clash, so one of them will have to give way to the other, making it not 'universal'.

I throw down the gauntlet to anyone willing to defend the idea of universal human rights as being anything other than wishful thinking.
Having a right and getting a right are two different things. Any body can grant a right, not only a law-making body. The UN is not exactly a law-making body but it grants the Universal Human Rights. That is not to say that there are not outlaws who don't recognize the Human Rights. But the same goes for a proper law-making body. An outlaw who doesn't recognize your rights will take them away and the law-making body won't prevent that. It may punish the outlaw if it has the power and opportunity. (As may the UN.)

RF grants you the right to post and it grants the right to not be harassed. You may get harassed anyway by an outlaw. But that outlaw will get punished (and lose their right to post).
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The concept of universal human rights is nonsense.

A right can be given by a law-making body.
The absence of a law against something means that it is a right until a law against it is introduced.

That is all a right amounts to. Everything else described as 'my right' is a want.

As more specific rights are introduced in legislation, you will get a point where Right A and Right B clash, so one of them will have to give way to the other, making it not 'universal'.

I throw down the gauntlet to anyone willing to defend the idea of universal human rights as being anything other than wishful thinking.
This sounds like the sign over the entrance to the ant colony in EB White's tales of young King Arthur: "Everything not expressly forbidden is mandatory."

My preference is to presume that I have a right to do and be anything I please that does no harm to others, or that is not otherwise expressly forbidden by law (which in a democracy is ideally something that we create together, for our mutual benefit).
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The right to exist has been bestowed upon us by existence, itself. This is universally true, and existentially ordained: it's not a human "wish".

The right to individual autonomy has been bestowed upon us by the way in which we have come to exist. This is also universally true and existentially ordained: not a human "wish".

The right to pursue our own happiness has been bestowed upon us by our ability to feel both pain and pleasure, and therefor choose between them. This is universally true, and existentially ordained. Not the result of some chosen "wish".

We humans can choose to actively thwart these universal eistentially bestowed rights and conditions, by denying them to other humans, and occasionally even to ourselves. But even that choice is itself a demonstration of the existential universality of those rights and conditions.
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
A law making body can only recognize rights. To imagine it can create rights is ridiculous, though some do so imagine. I refer to negative rights such as the right not to be interfered with in some way. These are plain from the nature of what is required to live and to do other things such as to try to raise happy children. If the government recognizes that people must live and must try to raise happy children then it at least in part recognizes our right to do so, however our right to do so is implicit in our human nature. Without living and trying to raise happy children we cannot thrive. Then the government is worthless, so it must recognize our rights or be useless.

It doesn't follow that just because some or many things are required to live and raise children that those things must be rights. Unless you are merely defining rights this way, which I have no reason to agree with said definition.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The absence of a law against something means that it is a right until a law against it is introduced.

...

As more specific rights are introduced in legislation, you will get a point where Right A and Right B clash, so one of them will have to give way to the other, making it not 'universal'.

I disagree with those two sentences specifically.

As for the first one, the absence of a law does not create a right. A right can only be said to exist if there is a law or norm to enforce it.

As for the second one, clashing rights don't make them any less universal. Not being enforced through the entire world/universe is what makes them not universal.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Having a right and getting a right are two different things. Any body can grant a right, not only a law-making body. The UN is not exactly a law-making body but it grants the Universal Human Rights. That is not to say that there are not outlaws who don't recognize the Human Rights. But the same goes for a proper law-making body. An outlaw who doesn't recognize your rights will take them away and the law-making body won't prevent that. It may punish the outlaw if it has the power and opportunity. (As may the UN.)

RF grants you the right to post and it grants the right to not be harassed. You may get harassed anyway by an outlaw. But that outlaw will get punished (and lose their right to post).

I would say that the only ones able to grant rights are the ones able and willing to enforce them.

For instance, if a random average Joe person is murdered in any given country, will the UN do something about it, as in punishing the murderer? I am willing to bet all my money the answer is no. When the UN acts like that it is effectively not granting any rights. I do agree though that anybody can grant a right, not just governments, one must be willing to enforce them.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The concept of universal human rights is nonsense.

A right can be given by a law-making body.
The absence of a law against something means that it is a right until a law against it is introduced.

That is all a right amounts to. Everything else described as 'my right' is a want.

As more specific rights are introduced in legislation, you will get a point where Right A and Right B clash, so one of them will have to give way to the other, making it not 'universal'.

I throw down the gauntlet to anyone willing to defend the idea of universal human rights as being anything other than wishful thinking.
Human rights are invented, ie, we don't inherently have any,
but we recognize various ones at different times & locations.
Are there universal human rights?
Possibly...if enuf governing bodies agree to form a consensus
that they're even willing to enforce. This is more than mere
wishful thinking...it's already happened to a limited & imperfect
extent.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The right to exist has been bestowed upon us by existence, itself. This is universally true, and existentially ordained: it's not a human "wish".

The right to individual autonomy has been bestowed upon us by the way in which we have come to exist. This is also universally true and existentially ordained: not a human "wish".

The right to pursue our own happiness has been bestowed upon us by our ability to feel both pain and pleasure, and therefor choose between them. This is universally true, and existentially ordained. Not the result of some chosen "wish".

We humans can choose to actively thwart these universal eistentially bestowed rights and conditions, by denying them to other humans, and occasionally even to ourselves. But even that choice is itself a demonstration of the existential universality of those rights and conditions.

Being able to exist, to have individual autonomy and to pursue happiness doesn't entail we have a right to those things. A thief is able to steal your money, but it doesn't mean he has the right to do.

Being able to do something =/= having a right to it
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The confusion is, law does not have to be objective. Law can be and is often, subjective. If we only had objectives law, based on something like science, then we could define human rights based on something anyone could infer, deduce and derive. But once you add subjectivity, then it comes down to lawyers playing word games with nobody able to agree.

In an objective sense, humans rights would be things that all people have the option to pursue, but with the actions of this pursuit not violating the objective rights of others. Once your actions they violate others, the objectivity breaks down and subjectivity is added, making this a violation of human rights.

For example, the pursuit of happiness is a right in the US Constitution. We all have the right to pursue that which makes us happy. However, if this pursuit violates others; redistribution of wealth by force, some people's rights are bring violated, so this is not the objective way to this human rights.

An objective way will require each person pursue their happiness within their means. They need to be self sufficient so nobody is losing anything when they pursue their own happiness. If you need more resources to pursue the next level of happiness, then you need to work harder, which also does not harm anyone. The criminal who wishes extra happiness and steals to provide for himself, causes harms to others, taking away their rights; the subjective laws of criminals. To be objective, of oneself, there can be no victims as you pursue you own happiness.

Humans rights allow for the right to make choices, but it does not guarantee equal results. We are not all the same, with all the same abilities and needs. We all need to accept, who we are, and work within these objective constraints to find our plain of happiness. The analogy is sports. In sports, all the players are required to play by the same set of rules no matter you ability. The pursuit of excellence will leads to different outcomes for each player. Some will be hall of famers and others will sit on the bench. In each context, one needs to find the silver lining instead of the dark cloud. Jealousy and cause problem since it will add subjectivity; blame others.

If we try to force a subjective scam, like all players need to score the same number of points each game, even though the team talent is not uniform, this will violate humans rights since this is not objectively possible, except on the very odd day when every dog has its day. Not being able to score as much, as the star player, is natural and is based on objective criteria; different talent and drive levels. As long as each does their best, the result is objective. If some players are required to dumb down their ability, subjectivity is added and their human rights are violated; emotional appeal or not.

Reverse discrimination violated human rights, since it did not account for the objective differences in people. Instead is used emotional appeal and guilt to favor one set of subjective needs, at the expense of the objective rights of others. Sports is a useful example, since it shows how objective human rights work. The objective range of talents common, to humans, will lead to different outcomes, but with each happy with their unique contribution to the whole, if they do their best. There is nothing that stops them from the outside. Limitations are all from the inside; jealousy, doubt and fear.

Human rights allows all of us to play any "sports/right" we choose, with nobody forbidden. But we all need to know ourselves and our talents and our limitations so we do not try to force others to pay for some extra prothesis, since this will add subjectivity and create unnatural results.

In sports, men and women often play in different leagues. This is due to the objective criteria of men being larger and more muscular giving them an advantage in most sports. The two leagues approach of male and female is very useful, since it allows men and women to both play at their best; similar talent levels, so more people can achieve happy results. To force all to play together, leads to less than total satisfaction, especially in the women, thereby justifying subjective games and emotional appeal, that can only be met by violating the rights of others.

The Political Left is the worse at violating human rights via emotional manipulation. They confuse objective human rights with everyone getting equal results, so force, via law, is needed. Objectivity to the rights and talent so all is buried under the sentiment. The leaders benefit by the skim of tax payer money, as lawyers compound the subjective confusion.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Being able to exist, to have individual autonomy and to pursue happiness doesn't entail we have a right to those things. A thief is able to steal your money, but it doesn't mean he has the right to do.

Being able to do something =/= having a right to it
You are confusing an existential right with a determined right. The existential right to exist has already been conferred. No human determination of rights can deny that. We can choose to obstruct it but only after the fact. This is why we generally consider existential rights to be universal (and "inalienable").
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Mountain Man, living in the wilderness has the right to act pretty much as he pleases. He can pee anywhere he likes, for example. But should he go to town, he's entering a society, a cooperative endeavor with its objective of a higher quality of life for all. So, when he enters a society Mountain Man, must trade-in some of his rights for the greater benefits produced by the cooperative effort. His right to pee anywhere he likes will be restricted, for example.

When the welfare of the group (society) is diminished by the individual's action, the individual's right has to be restricted. Otherwise, the cooperative effort fails.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Yep. Just as I suspected. No connection to the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. It's only in the Declaration of Independence and never made it into law.

Face it, you don't have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your founding fathers thought it sounded good when declaring independence from Britain but never cared enough to implement it into law.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You are confusing an existential right with a determined right. The existential right to exist has already been conferred. No human determination of rights can deny that. We can choose to obstruct it but only after the fact. This is why we generally consider existential rights to be universal (and "inalienable").

There are no existential rights.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yep. Just as I suspected. No connection to the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. It's only in the Declaration of Independence and never made it into law.

Face it, you don't have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your founding fathers thought it sounded good when declaring independence from Britain but never cared enough to implement it into law.
Well, I never claimed that pursuing happiness is a right.
The Bill Of Rights does strive towards that though.
 
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