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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Recently finished reading Rationality by Steven Pinker. There is much that could be said about it but this passage in particular stood out to me:

People divide their worlds into two zones. One consists of the physical objects around them, the other people they deal with face to face, the memory of their interactions, and the rules and norms that regulate their lives. People have mostly accurate beliefs about this zone, and they reason rationally within it. Within this zone, they believe there’s a real world and that beliefs about it are true or false. They have no choice: that’s the only way to keep gas in the car, money in the bank, and the kids clothed and fed. Call it the reality mindset.
The other zone is the world beyond immediate experience: the distant past, the unknowable future, faraway peoples and places, remote corridors of power, the microscopic, the cosmic, the counterfactual, the metaphysical. People may entertain notions about what happens in these zones, but they have no way of finding out, and anyway it makes no discernible difference to their lives. Beliefs in these zones are narratives, which may be entertaining or inspiring or morally edifying. Whether they are literally “true” or “false” is the wrong question. The function of these beliefs is to construct a social reality that binds the tribe or sect and gives it a moral purpose. Call it the mythology mindset.
Bertrand Russell famously said, “It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing it is true.” The key to understanding rampant irrationality is to recognize that Russell’s statement is not a truism but a revolutionary manifesto. For most of human history and prehistory, there were no grounds for supposing that propositions about remote worlds were true. But beliefs about them could be empowering or inspirational, and that made them desirable enough.
Russell’s maxim is the luxury of a technologically advanced society with science, history, journalism, and their infrastructure of truth-seeking, including archival records, digital datasets, high-tech instruments, and communities of editing, fact-checking, and peer review. We children of the Enlightenment embrace the radical creed of universal realism: we hold that all our beliefs should fall within the reality mindset. We care about whether our creation story, our founding legends, our theories of invisible nutrients and germs and forces, our conceptions of the powerful, our suspicions about our enemies, are true or false. That’s because we have the tools to get answers to these questions, or at least to assign them warranted degrees of credence. And we have a technocratic state that should, in theory, put these beliefs into practice.
But as desirable as that creed is, it is not the natural human way of believing. In granting an imperialistic mandate to the reality mindset to conquer the universe of belief and push mythology to the margins, we are the weird ones—or, as evolutionary social scientists like to say, the WEIRD ones: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic. At least, the highly educated among us are, in our best moments. The human mind is adapted to understanding remote spheres of existence through a mythology mindset. It’s not because we descended from Pleistocene hunter-gatherers specifically, but because we descended from people who could not or did not sign on to the Enlightenment ideal of universal realism. Submitting all of one’s beliefs to the trials of reason and evidence is an unnatural skill, like literacy and numeracy, and must be instilled and cultivated.

Although this has an obvious relevance to certain types of religious beliefs, it's worth pointing out that Pinker applies it more widely to include, for example, modern conspiracy theories. He illustrates this by pointing out the followers of QAnon very often do not act as if they really believe (reality mindset) that there is paedophile ring operating out of a pizza restaurant, say, by calling the police. Apparently somebody, instead, gave the restaurant a one-star review that talked about shady looking characters eyeing up his kids.

For myself, I unashamedly aspire to universal realism, but what do others here think? Do you think it's a fair summary? Do you too aspire to universal realism or do you regard the mythology mindset as valuable and as something that should be preserved? If you have religious beliefs, which mindset do you think they belong to?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

For myself, I unashamedly aspire to universal realism, but what do others here think? Do you think it's a fair summary? Do you too aspire to universal realism or do you regard the mythology mindset as valuable and as something that should be preserved? If you have religious beliefs, which mindset do you think they belong to?

Well, as a skeptic I haven't been able to do that for only one version of true or for only one version of experience.
Here are 3 propostions and the truth of those are different.
The leaves of the tree are green.
The tree is real.
That, which is not physical, is not real.

The problem is that even real is sometimes a narrative. So I don't do it as you do it, but I also don't do it as standard religion for the supernatural.
But if you really need to box everything into 2 categories of real and unreal, then yes part of what I do is not real, but I do it anyway. ;)

In more general terms your version of philosophy is not the only way to do it. But just declare that all other forms of doing it are all the same and then don't doubt that. :D

Most non-religious people do a form of realism for the objective, physical, rational and real that I can do differently, but that is not the falsifaiction of their model not being universel. It is that what I do, is not relevant as what is really real to them, but it is irrelevant that it is so to them, because it is not subjective at all. ;)
If you really want it for the history of Western philosophy, it is the fight of how to do this:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." Protagoras
And how many different kinds of measure as understanding there are and if they all have limits in practice.

Regards
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Recently finished reading Rationality by Steven Pinker. There is much that could be said about it but this passage in particular stood out to me:

People divide their worlds into two zones. One consists of the physical objects around them, the other people they deal with face to face, the memory of their interactions, and the rules and norms that regulate their lives. People have mostly accurate beliefs about this zone, and they reason rationally within it. Within this zone, they believe there’s a real world and that beliefs about it are true or false. They have no choice: that’s the only way to keep gas in the car, money in the bank, and the kids clothed and fed. Call it the reality mindset.
For some people this zone seems to be very small and what happens at the fringes can impact their lives. Some people really believe in miracles and then they also believe that the Nigerian prince will share his wealth with them.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
For some people this zone seems to be very small and what happens at the fringes can impact their lives. Some people really believe in miracles and then they also believe that the Nigerian prince will share his wealth with them.

To be honest if we are to play this game, I once came across a non-relgious person, who believed that all other versions of how to cope meant that they had sick parts in the brain, that needed to be cut out.
Or another one, who believed that other people thinking different in fact meant that they weren't thinking and feeling at all, because how he thought/felt was the only real way to do it.

As I see it, it has nothing to do with religion as such or even CTs. Unrealistic coping mechansims can be found in all categories of humans.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
To be honest if we are to play this game, I once came across a non-relgious person, who believed that all other versions of how to cope meant that they had sick parts in the brain, that needed to be cut out.
Or another one, who believed that other people thinking different in fact meant that they weren't thinking and feeling at all, because how he thought/felt was the only real way to do it.

As I see it, it has nothing to do with religion as such or even CTs. Unrealistic coping mechansims can be found in all categories of humans.
Did I mention religion? *checks* No, I said people believing in miracles - but I understand the confusion.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Did I mention religion? *checks* No, I said people believing in miracles - but I understand the confusion.

Yeah, doing this for 25 years now, including how many versions of stupidity, or what ever term you want to use there are, I just tend to include other versions than the one(s) under debate.

And in effect for my understanding we always in the holy grail of eduction. ;)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Well, as a skeptic I haven't been able to do that for only one version of true or for only one version of experience.
Here are 3 propostions and the truth of those are different.
The leaves of the tree are green.
The tree is real.
That, which is not physical, is not real.
I'm not really interested in extreme scepticism. What is 'real' is what doesn't go away when you stop believing it. That which is unavoidable. Speculating about whether that is 'actually real' or not is a waste of time. It can never lead you anywhere.

"The leaves of the tree are green." is true (provided you're careful about defining 'green').
"The tree is real." is true according to the above approach.
"That, which is not physical, is not real." is a bare assertion.

Most non-religious people do a form of realism for the objective, physical, rational and real that I can do differently
You often assert this. I've never seen the slightest hint of evidence that you can actually do it differently at all. You live your life as if the unavoidable "objective world" was real, otherwise you'd simply not survive (as was pointed out in the quote). You just appear to like to play word games with it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'm not really interested in extreme scepticism. What is 'real' is what doesn't go away when you stop believing it. That which is unavoidable. Speculating about whether that is 'actually real' or not is a waste of time. It can never lead you anywhere.

"The leaves of the tree are green." is true (provided you're careful about defining 'green').
"The tree is real." is true according to the above approach.
"That, which is not physical, is not real." is a bare assertion.


You often assert this. I've never seen the slightest hint of evidence that you can actually do it differently at all. You live your life as if the unavoidable "objective world" was real, otherwise you'd simply not survive (as was pointed out in the quote). You just appear to like to play word games with it.

I considered doing a long version of how there are different models of real, that still share the unaviodable objective world, yet differ for how that works.
So rather than do that, I will point out that the bold is not unavoidable, real, objective and physical. Rather it is your way of doing your cogontion and I do skepticism differently.
But the joke is that what you do it is real and true to you, yet not objective, physical and unaviodable.

So yes, there is a part of the everyday world that meets your model, but it is not complete the moment you understand that you can't just live in regards to that.
You are in effect a scientific skeptic and yes, that works for the real, objective, physical and unavioble parts of the world, but it is not everything.
So we do subjectivity differently and you don't win just because we agree on a part of the world, that is not all of the world.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So rather than do that, I will point out that the bold is not unavoidable, real, objective and physical.
I am voicing my lack of interest in a point of view ('extreme scepticism'), which is a view that exists in the real, unavoidable, objective world, as you continuously demonstrate.

It really doesn't interest me and absolutely nothing you've said, in of all the things I've read in your posts (which is way more than I've responded to), would negate the two mindsets outlined in the passage I quoted, and hence the point of this thread. Nothing.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I am voicing my lack of interest in a point of view ('extreme scepticism'), which is a view that exists in the real, unavoidable, objective world, as you continuously demonstrate.

It really doesn't interest me and absolutely nothing you've said, in of all the things I've read in your posts (which is way more than I've responded to), would negate the two mindsets outlined in the passage I quoted, and hence the point of this thread. Nothing.

No, it doesn't. That view and your views don't exist in the objective world. Sorry, but you are conflating that it subjectively makes sense to you with that it is objective.
The world is both for different aspects objective and subjective and that is real. In a sense the subjective is also unaviodable, but it works differently because it is subjective and dependent on different versions of cognition.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No, it doesn't. That view and your views don't exist in the objective world.
Of course people's views exist in the objective world. The distinction is between the view that we should subject all our beliefs to the standard we apply to the objective world or not.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Yeah, then I need you to explain your understanding of objective.
What's hard? Your views (and mine) are expressed in words that can be objectively observed. They also (according to the evidence) reflect the state of your brain, which is also a part of the objective world. This is all, quite clearly, in the reality mindset, even if the expressed views reject that mindset.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What's hard? Your views (and mine) are expressed in words that can be objectively observed. They also (according to the evidence) reflect the state of your brain, which is also a part of the objective world. This is all, quite clearly, in the reality mindset, even if the expressed views reject that mindset.

Okay, here are the 3 relevant versions of objective that I use and the one for subjective:
-of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
-having reality independent of the mind.
-expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.
-relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states.

Now that, you are not interested in extreme skepticism, is as far as I can tell not objective as it is based on the bold factors.

So you operate in effect with a contradiction version for objective as not depedent on the state of a brain and dependent on a state of a brain and both cases are objective.

BTW the meaning of words can't be objectively observed, because then you can understand languages which you haven't subjectively learned as the meaning is independent of a given brain.
You really have to learn to be skeptical of your own beliefs and check them. In effect your idea of words is a common folk belief of words and doesn't match that people can get brain damange to a part of the brain not envolved in seening as observation, yet loose the ability to understand words.

You have to learn that there are 2 versions of inter-subjective and they work different and all that is inter-sibjective is not objective.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Now that, you are not interested in extreme skepticism, is as far as I can tell not objective as it is based on the bold factors.
That I am not interested in extreme scepticism is (obviously) and objective fact. The existence of subjective judgements, tastes, priorities and so on, are objective facts that you learn via the available evidence. You are simply confusing the opinions/tastes/judgements themselves with their existence in somebody's mind/brain.

This is all irrelevant to the thread, so I will no longer respond unless you have something to say that's actually on-topic.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Broadly, sure. But I'm suspicious of people who call themselves rationalists - I've been on the internet too long.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Broadly, sure. But I'm suspicious of people who call themselves rationalists - I've been on the internet too long.
Yes, I know what you mean. I was also careful to call it an aspiration. It's something I aim for.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Broadly, sure. But I'm suspicious of people who call themselves rationalists - I've been on the internet too long.

Well, I get what rational is. It is a certain cogntive stance/schema and describes a human behaviour in the end. The problem is that it is not the only human behavior and it indeed has a limt in practice.
I mean on a good day, I am capable on catching when I am irrational and explain how I am in effect using emotions/feelings, which are not rational and without evidence, but I have never been able to replicate being rational all the time.

So yes, be rational and use objective evidence, where relevant, but learn that it has a limit, like any other human behaviour.
 
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