Universalism

[Quiddity]

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

 

[BrandonE]

As for the history of Universalism as a Christian doctrine, a web search for "universalism history" can lead to some sites that go into great detail about the history of the belief. EDIT: I tried to put up a link to an interesting one I found, but can't do that until I've made at least 15 posts apparently.

However, universalism in America pretty quickly moved from being a specifically Christian (protestant) doctrine, to being a wider belief in the ultimate mercy of the divine. Specific belief varies widely among UU's now, and the number of members that hold a specifically historical protestant view of the doctrine is probably very very small.

Personally, though I no longer believe in a separate deity, my break with the "salvation vs. damnation"/"sheep and goats" doctrine of my upbringing came mostly by an intuition that all the wise and good people that I saw in the world outside of Christendom could not be damned by a loving deity.

 

[Quiddity]

As for the history of Universalism as a Christian doctrine, a web search for "universalism history" can lead to some sites that go into great detail about the history of the belief. EDIT: I tried to put up a link to an interesting one I found, but can't do that until I've made at least 15 posts apparently.

However, universalism in America pretty quickly moved from being a specifically Christian (protestant) doctrine, to being a wider belief in the ultimate mercy of the divine. Specific belief varies widely among UU's now, and the number of members that hold a specifically historical protestant view of the doctrine is probably very very small.

Personally, though I no longer believe in a separate deity, my break with the "salvation vs. damnation"/"sheep and goats" doctrine of my upbringing came mostly by an intuition that all the wise and good people that I saw in the world outside of Christendom could not be damned by a loving deity.

Do you personally hold to a Universalist salvation ideology?

 

[BrandonE]

Do you personally hold to a Universalist salvation ideology?

Hmm. Personally, I'm not even sure how I'd define "salvation". My personal theology has changed a lot over my lifetime. I currently conceive of "god" as the totality of the universe, and don't really believe in any sort of afterlife that involves singular, recognizable ego identities. So, I guess the answer to the question is really yes and no. Is that helpful?

 

[Quiddity]

Hmm. Personally, I'm not even sure how I'd define "salvation". My personal theology has changed a lot over my lifetime. I currently conceive of "god" as the totality of the universe, and don't really believe in any sort of afterlife that involves singular, recognizable ego identities. So, I guess the answer to the question is really yes and no. Is that helpful?

You seem to fit the Deist philosphy, no?
Yes it does answer my question. If you don't believe in the after life, there is nothing to get saved from, right?

 

[Green Gaia]

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

Most UUs would probably respond, "Saved from what?" Many (if not most or all) reject the idea of an eternal place of torture and torment that one must be saved from. Many even reject the idea of sin, so without sin why hell? However, some still find these terms useful and applicable to our lives, albeit in a UU light. For example, Rev. Forrest Church says, I define the word sin simply. It is anything that divides us: within ourselves; against our neighbor; from the ground of our being, the god of all creation. Salvation, from the Latin, means health. The Teutonic words heath, hale, holy, and whole all share the same root. Salvation from sin is, to use St. Paul's word, reconciliation. On those rare yet blessed moments when we make full peace with ourselves, with others, and with our creator, we experience salvation.

That is probably beyond what you were asking, so let me back up and go back to the old Christian Universalist's idea of salvation for all. Universalists as a matter of historical definition are those who believe God to be so loving that all will be reconciled to God's own self. Anything short of "universal salvation," Universalists in the 18th century thought, would fail to comport with the image of God as all-powerful and all-knowing. The doctrine can be traced to the earliest centuries of Church history, and was taught by both Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Universalists in 18th and 19th century North America often believed that the punishment for sin was simply the fate of having to live the life of a sinner, and that this was sufficient and "just retribution" for such conduct. Others believed in something closer to purgatory, while others said it was beyond the understanding of mortals to know what would ultimately transpire before all dwell in "final harmony" with God. The Universalists of the 19th century were "people of the land" (as opposed to the Unitarians who were thought of as "people of the city"). They were often farmers, poor people who found hope and goodness in this idea of universal salvation. It was through this understanding that a good God would save everyone, so therefore everyone is important to God came about and gave rise to the first social actions by the religious group against slavery and other social ills. It was the Universalists in the north that were the loudest opposition to slavery. The Unitarians (who were the rich folk) were quiet on the matter since they were implicated in the slave trade. Their businesses profited from slavery. But again, I'm getting off track... how about I stop there for now.

 

[BrandonE]

You seem to fit the Deist philosphy, no?
Yes it does answer my question. If you don't believe in the after life, there is nothing to get saved from, right?

I think of myself as a pantheist (monist), and as a monist, I don't totally agree with the "first cause" definition of god, but honestly, my theology is pretty fluid and poorly defined.

Also, while I don't believe much in the afterlife, I'm more agnostic about it than anything else. If I turn out to be wrong about the afterlife (afterall, how could I REALLY know one way or the other?), I do think that it will be a universalist experience; so no, I don't believe there's anything to be "saved" from.

So now that I've explained my position, what's yours? I see you have Catholic listed as your religion. Do you believe in heaven, purgatory, and hell? What prompted you to ask about universalism?

 

[PolyHedral]

There's always the wiki article.

 

[Quiddity]

Most UUs would probably respond, "Saved from what?" Many (if not most or all) reject the idea of an eternal place of torture and torment that one must be saved from. Many even reject the idea of sin, so without sin why hell? However, some still find these terms useful and applicable to our lives, albeit in a UU light. For example, Rev. Forrest Church says, I define the word sin simply. It is anything that divides us: within ourselves; against our neighbor; from the ground of our being, the god of all creation. Salvation, from the Latin, means health. The Teutonic words heath, hale, holy, and whole all share the same root. Salvation from sin is, to use St. Paul's word, reconciliation. On those rare yet blessed moments when we make full peace with ourselves, with others, and with our creator, we experience salvation.

That is probably beyond what you were asking, so let me back up and go back to the old Christian Universalist's idea of salvation for all. Universalists as a matter of historical definition are those who believe God to be so loving that all will be reconciled to God's own self. Anything short of "universal salvation," Universalists in the 18th century thought, would fail to comport with the image of God as all-powerful and all-knowing. The doctrine can be traced to the earliest centuries of Church history, and was taught by both Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Universalists in 18th and 19th century North America often believed that the punishment for sin was simply the fate of having to live the life of a sinner, and that this was sufficient and "just retribution" for such conduct. Others believed in something closer to purgatory, while others said it was beyond the understanding of mortals to know what would ultimately transpire before all dwell in "final harmony" with God. The Universalists of the 19th century were "people of the land" (as opposed to the Unitarians who were thought of as "people of the city"). They were often farmers, poor people who found hope and goodness in this idea of universal salvation. It was through this understanding that a good God would save everyone, so therefore everyone is important to God came about and gave rise to the first social actions by the religious group against slavery and other social ills. It was the Universalists in the north that were the loudest opposition to slavery. The Unitarians (who were the rich folk) were quiet on the matter since they were implicated in the slave trade. Their businesses profited from slavery. But again, I'm getting off track... how about I stop there for now.

So in the minds of the Christian Universalists or any other UU who holds to the "everybody is saved" ideology, what happens to the very evil in the afterlife?

Is this an endangered species in UU circles?

 

[Quiddity]

I think of myself as a pantheist (monist), and as a monist, I don't totally agree with the "first cause" definition of god, but honestly, my theology is pretty fluid and poorly defined.

Also, while I don't believe much in the afterlife, I'm more agnostic about it than anything else. If I turn out to be wrong about the afterlife (afterall, how could I REALLY know one way or the other?), I do think that it will be a universalist experience; so no, I don't believe there's anything to be "saved" from.

So now that I've explained my position, what's yours? I see you have Catholic listed as your religion. Do you believe in heaven, purgatory, and hell? What prompted you to ask about universalism?

I'd love to answer, but this is a UU forum and for eduction of UU stance only. If you wish to you can read this to see my stance on Hell to begin with.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=493513#post493513
Specifically post# 34.
Any other inquiries can be made in the Catholic forum.

 

[Green Gaia]

So in the minds of the Christian Universalists or any other UU who holds to the "everybody is saved" ideology, what happens to the very evil in the afterlife?

They will be reconciled with God.

Is this an endangered species in UU circles?

Quite. Although there still exists the universalist ideas in Christian circles, too.

You might appreciate this story: Hosea Ballou was a 19th century preacher of universal salvation, the final harmony of all souls with God – God’s nature is love - all are ultimately forgiven – no one goes to Hell – a controversial doctrine then and now. One afternoon he was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, "Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of Hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I'd still go to heaven." Hosea Ballou, without hesitation, turned to him and said, "If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you."

This may or may not be a completely true story, but it points to an important ethical truth – the importance of being good - for nothing.

 

[BrandonE]

I'd love to answer, but this is a UU forum and for eduction of UU stance only.

Thanks. I'm new to the forum and didn't realize quite how the divisions worked. I'll check it out.

 

[Green Gaia]

What prompted you to ask about universalism?

Because I made a contest.

 

[Quiddity]

They will be reconciled with God.

So why in their minds should I care to do good then?

Quite. Although there still exists the universalist ideas in Christian circles, too.

You might appreciate this story: Hosea Ballou was a 19th century preacher of universal salvation, the final harmony of all souls with God – God’s nature is love - all are ultimately forgiven – no one goes to Hell – a controversial doctrine then and now. One afternoon he was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, "Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of Hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I'd still go to heaven." Hosea Ballou, without hesitation, turned to him and said, "If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you."

This may or may not be a completely true story, but it points to an important ethical truth – the importance of being good - for nothing.

Being good for nothing......I guess that answers my above question. I don't know what else to say....

 

[Quiddity]

Because I made a contest.

It was gonna get to this eventually Amy.....really I was....

 

[BrandonE]

Because I made a contest.

Ah. Well, I enjoyed the question and answer, so your contest was successful I guess.

OT: it's rather irritating that I can't even quote a post that contains a link without expunging said link first.

 

[lilithu]

I’ve always been curious as to the nature of universalism. To my understanding most UU’s hold that everyone will be saved if there is indeed a God. Can someone expound on this please?

Hey Victor, namaste.

Universalism, with a capital 'U' is a liberal Christian sect (the way that Lutheranism and Mormonism are sects) that rejected Calvin's ideology of "limited atonement." (As compared to Unitarianism, which rejected Calvin's ideology of "total depravity.") The Universalist argument in a nutshell goes like this:
1) God is all good.
2) God is all powerful.
3) An all good God would desire for all people to be saved and an all powerful God would be able to make it so.
4) Therefore, everyone is saved.

Universalism started in England where it still exists, was brought to America by John Murray and was most eloquently defended by his disciple, Hosea Ballou, in "A Treatise on Atonement." In the U.S., Universalism as a sect merged with Unitarianism, but as a religious belief system there are still people who are Universalists, not UUs.

universalism with a little 'u' basically refers to the same belief but not specifically to the sect.

As Maize said, many UUs will ask "saved from what?" which honestly drives me bonkers. I don't believe in everlasting fire and brimstone. But neither do I believe that everything is hunky dory just the way it is. In fact, it seems quite obvious to me that the world is in bad shape, and that people are in bad shape (I certainly am) and that we need saving. By "salvation" I don't mean supernatural intervention. I mean the Beloved Community - us saving each other. (As St. Theresa said, on earth Christ has no hands but ours...) For me the good news of UU isn't "I'm ok; you're ok" because frankly that doesn't do a person who is suffering one bit of good. That's the self-congratulatory message of the over-privileged. For me the good news of UU is "we are all in this together." Most all of us will need help at some time or another, and when we do, we'll be there for each other. We won't leave anyone behind. If somone is suffering, then we all are suffering.

So do I believe in universal salvation? Yes, of course I do. As far as I am concerned it's the only kind of salvation there is.

 

[Green Gaia]

As Maize said, many UUs will ask "saved from what?" which honestly drives me bonkers. I don't believe in everlasting fire and brimstone. But neither do I believe that everything is hunky dory just the way it is. In fact, it seems quite obvious to me that the world is in bad shape, and that people are in bad shape (I certainly am) and that we need saving. By "salvation" I don't mean supernatural intervention. I mean the Beloved Community - us saving each other. (As St. Theresa said, on earth Christ has no hands but ours...) For me the good news of UU isn't "I'm ok; you're ok" because frankly that doesn't do a person who is suffering one bit of good. That's the self-congratulatory message of the over-privileged.

I will admit that I used to be one of those who would answer, "saved from what?" Not because I thought everything was just fine but it was more of a reaction to that word, "salvation" which has very Christian connotations for most and definitely did for me. There is this idea that if you don't have salvation then you are doomed to a lake of fire for eternity. Which is something UUs (I dare say all) reject. I think we UUs can use the word and not mean the alternative is everlasting torture. The torture is now in this lifetime, and so can salvation be found.

 

[James the Persian]

I will admit that I used to be one of those who would answer, "saved from what?" Not because I thought everything was just fine but it was more of a reaction to that word, "salvation" which has very Christian connotations for most and definitely did for me. There is this idea that if you don't have salvation then you are doomed to a lake of fire for eternity. Which is something UUs (I dare say all) reject. I think we UUs can use the word and not mean the alternative is everlasting torture. The torture is now in this lifetime, and so can salvation be found.

What if the question is not 'saved from what' but 'saved for what'? Would that make a difference to how you view the Christian concept of salvation? It certainly did to me when I found that was the question in Orthodoxy. Personally, I think that question is more compatible with universalism/apokatastasis. It seems as though St. Gregory of Nyssa would likely agree, and he's one of my favourite theologians for his loving hope that all would be saved. What do you (all of you UUs) think?

James

P.S.
Just as a minor point of clarification, whilst St. Gregory of Nyssa did hold to apokatastasis as a personal belief and did write about it he didn't teach it as doctrine. In that way he was rather different to Origen.

 

[michel]

When I first came here, I thought UU would be a 'blanket cover' for my beliefs. Unfortunately, UU hasn't reached England, and we just have Universalism, (which did'nt quite "fit the bill.")