Unpaid Prison Labor

[Shadow Wolf]

That's true.
But punishment for crimes involves
loss of many civil rights. Why focus
solely upon this one, but not speech,
travel, etc, etc.

Yeah, I'm not big into punishment. Yes, some has to happen, but America goes too far amd gets a high recedivism rate for it.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Thanks for explaining.

Nonetheless, I don't see people who commit violent crimes and are in maximum security prisons which are supported by tax payers deserving of any pay for the work they do while incarcerated.

I'm not a big fan of retribution justice in general, as it has a far lower rate of successful reintegration and higher recidivism. When you treat convicts humanely they're more likely to act humanely in the future, which is a weird concept, I know. Also most convicts also paid tax money to those institutions, and should recieve those tax benefits in the form of humane treatment and programs to assist reform, not just a hole and forced labor.

All in all, there are things for which no crime should have punishment, even in retribution systems. Which is why we have cruel and unusual punishment laws. Things like slavery or loss of body autonomy (e.g. medical experimentation, prostitution, harvesting tissue) should be categorically forbidden.

 

[Revoltingest]

Eh, I think prisons exist to make money; in this country, specifically.

They don't.
They're a costly drain on the taxpayers.
If money is to be made, I observe that it's
been corrupt officials....like what you see
in The Shawshank Redemption.

The dark ages aren't so long ago, with the last chain gang shutting down in the 90s

Chain gang - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

By 1955 it had largely been phased out in the U.S., with Georgia among the last states to abandon the practice.[2] North Carolina continued to use chain gangs into the 1970s.[3][4] Chain gangs were reintroduced by a few states during the "get tough on crime" 1990s: In 1995, Alabama was the first state to revive them. The experiment ended after about one year in all states except Arizona,[5] where in Maricopa County inmates can still volunteer for a chain gang to earn credit toward a high school diploma or avoid disciplinary lockdowns for rule infractions.[6]

Now keep in mind that prisons had become private businesses at this time, and you better believe they influenced the reintroduction of chain gangs where they could profit off of their hard labor

Prison–industrial complex - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

As the prison population continued to grow steeply throughout the 1990s, the profit margins of private prison corporations such as CCA and GeoGroup continued to increase.[8] Throughout the 1990s, the CCA and GeoGroup were both significant donors to the American Legislative Exchange Council.[37] In 1995, Congress passed another piece of ALEC-influenced legislation, the Prison Industries Act, allowing corporations to pay prison laborers less than the federal minimum wage and divert the difference to constructing facilities for further prison labor.[38][39]

On top of that, incarceration rates in this country are crazy high compared to other countries - especially when we compare ourselves to other first world countries. Higher incarceration rates = more money


Our prisons still violate basic human rights

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/column-us-prisons-rife-with-human-rights-abuses-especially-against-black-people-2023-10-04/#:~:text=Those%20kinds%20of%20disparities%20also,ill%20treatment%20%E2%80%93%20and%20forced%2C%20unpaid

That's not the goal in this country, unfortunately. Between the militarization of our police force, the private ownership and profiteering of prison system, and the "law and order" politics in this country - the only way forward is more exploitation of people. There's a reason people in this country reoffend and are sent back into the prison system so often

Recidivism Rates in the United States versus Europe: How and Why are they Different?

Recidivism rates in the United States (70%) are almost triple that of most European countries (20% in Norway). The question that this project aims to answer is “How and Why are Recidivism Rates in the United States and Europe Different?”. High recidivism rates like the ones we have in the United...

scholarworks.wmich.edu

Recidivism rates in the United States (70%) are almost triple that of most European countries (20% in Norway). The question that this project aims to answer is “How and Why are Recidivism Rates in the United States and Europe Different?”. High recidivism rates like the ones we have in the United States indicate that a criminal justice system is perpetuating a crime cycle, rather than rehabilitating or reforming its prisoners.



I wish that's where we went. Unfortunately, we view convicts as non-people in this country. People here prefer the short term gratification of knowing they receive punishment with little thought to what happens after that. Because of that, exploitation of the prison population is allowed to proliferate

I agree that prisons violate civil rights that
should still be afforded inmates. They deserve
safety & health care. Rehabilitation isn't a right,
but it's a necessity for return to society.

 

[libre]

But do you really think the motive for locking these people up is free labor/slavery?

I do think that is the history.

From an ACLU report:

"Incarcerated labor has a long and problematic history in the United States, rooted in racial oppression. The roots of modern-day labor programs can be traced to the end of the Civil War and the passage of the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in 1865. The 13th Amendment outlawed slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.”181 Given this gaping loophole, states turned to incarcerated labor as a means of partially replacing chattel slavery and the free labor force slavery provided."

 

[Soandso]

They don't.
They're a costly drain on the taxpayers.
If money is to be made, I observe that it's
been corrupt officials....like what you see
in The Shawshank Redemption.

Well, I'm certain the businesses that run the prisons aren't losing any money. That's for sure

I'd be curious to see how much of a drain the current prison system is on the taxpayer vs. before when it was ran by the state. One of the main reasons it was privatized initially was to save the taxpayer some money

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, I'm not big into punishment. Yes, some has to happen, but America goes too far amd gets a high recedivism rate for it.

On this we agree.

Well, I'm certain the businesses that run the prisons aren't losing any money. That's for sure

Because taxpayers foot the bill.
Prisons will exist, whether run privately or by government.
Both have been run with too little regard for the inmates.
The issue should be how they're run, not who runs them.

I'd be curious to see how much of a drain the current prison system is on the taxpayer vs. before when it was ran by the state. One of the main reasons it was privatized initially was to save the taxpayer some money

I've not looked into relative costs.

 

[Colt]

So a prison isn't a place to keep the greater population safe. It's a way to work the imprisoned into profitablity?

Make enough to pay people to be in prison? Sounds like a job to me.

Not sure I really understand what you re suggesting.

No, that's you reading what I said with a bias. Weather its compassionate reform or social protection, humans benefit from self-respecting forms of labor. Sitting around in a cage all day playing cards doesn't promote self-esteem. Self-support can mean farming and other service-oriented labor.

 

[Kfox]

Well, technically, they are both. If they refuse to work, they are often faced with solitary confinement and refusal of parole (SOURCE: How NY Prison 'Slave Labor' Powers A $50 Million Manufacturing Enterprise). And the amounts they are paid ranges from 10 cents to 65 cents an hour (SOURCE: Increasing Prison Wages to Dollars Just Makes Sense).

So how did they have all of those Prison Strikes? As far as wages, if 10 cents buys as much in prison as 10 dollars buys in the outside world, doesn't it kinda balance out?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, technically, they are both. If they refuse to work, they are often faced with solitary confinement and refusal of parole (SOURCE: How NY Prison 'Slave Labor' Powers A $50 Million Manufacturing Enterprise). And the amounts they are paid ranges from 10 cents to 65 cents an hour (SOURCE: Increasing Prison Wages to Dollars Just Makes Sense).

I mean, think of it this way: if I turned up with a gun and told you to carry out some jobs for me or I would shoot you, then you carried out the work and I gave you a couple dollars, you wouldn't argue that you weren't being "forced" to do the work because I paid you, and you wouldn't say the pay was a genuine incentive for you to do the work.

I'd think that higher pay that supports a better
standard of living in prison just might be useful.
I don't know this. Just something I'll ponder.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So how did they have all of those Prison Strikes?

Because they can still strike? What does that have to do with the point I was making? Slaves can revolt or refuse to work, too. It doesn't make them not slaves.

As far as wages, if 10 cents buys as much in prison as 10 dollars buys in the outside world, doesn't it kinda balance out?

So, it doesn't matter if they're forced to AND paid significantly below minimum wage for their labour?

 

[The Hammer]

No, that's you reading what I said with a bias. Weather its compassionate reform or social protection, humans benefit from self-respecting forms of labor. Sitting around in a cage all day playing cards doesn't promote self-esteem. Self-support can mean farming and other service-oriented labor.

And they should be justly compensated for that labor, and it shouldn't be mandatory.

I don't think people necessarily benefit from "work".

Being of use to a loved one or doing something they care about sure. But that people like and want to work... Seems a stretch.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Show me which post says that our justice system plucks random people off the streets. Show me your assessment isn't conjecture.

The way they go about it is creating more and more laws increasing the odds of being arrested, as well as turning once legal things into illegal things so they can be arrested.

I call that the slavery recruitment campaign of the deep state.

 

[Colt]

And they should be justly compensated for that labor, and it shouldn't be mandatory.

I don't think people necessarily benefit from "work".

Being of use to a loved one or doing something they care about sure. But that people like and want to work... Seems a stretch.

I can imagine that you don't benefit from work.

 

[The Hammer]

I can imagine that you don't benefit from work.

Good jest. Care to address the statement I made or just make a quip?

Edit

 

[Colt]

Good jest. Care to address the statement I made or just make a quip?

Edit

Self respect via service to others and self support are healthy practices. You disagree and want prisoners to just sit in a cage for years. We disagree, lets not waist board space.

 

[The Hammer]

Self respect via service to others and self support are healthy practices. You disagree and want prisoners to just sit in a cage for years. We disagree, lets not waist board space.

If you think that's what I'm saying. Then yes we can stop there. Good day @Colt

Edited adding what I did say: "... they should be justly compensated for that labor, and it shouldn't be mandatory."

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Self respect via service to others and self support are healthy practices. You disagree and want prisoners to just sit in a cage for years. We disagree, lets not waist board space.

Being against compulsory unpaid labor does not mean being against labor. Labor options should absolutely be available to prisoners, in surplus of options, that they can select for self-betterment, goal orientated skill building or community improvement. And selection of the labor should be collaborative between the prisoners and their guidance counselors and social workers.

Service to others is a healthy practice, when practiced willingly.

 

[Firenze]

​

The Federal Bureau of Prisons disagrees:

​

Sentenced inmates are required to work if they are medically able. Institution work assignments include employment in areas like food service or the warehouse, or work as an inmate orderly, plumber, painter, or groundskeeper. Inmates earn 12¢ to 40¢ per hour for these work assignments.​

​

BOP: Work Programs

www.bop.gov

Prisoners are paid. The murderer, the child rapist, the guy who killed his wife for insurance money….. they all get room and board.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Prisoners are paid. The murderer, the child rapist, the guy who killed his wife for insurance money….. they all get room and board.

Prisoners are paid, if at all, pennies. Way less than minimum wage. As a result, they come out of prison with little to no money, little to no job prospects, many have lost homes, property, family. In the US repeat offense is so high in part because we don't give prisoners the tools to actually reform. Just worse and worse prospects.

Also, framing all prisoners effected by slave labor as rapists and killers is a narrative designed to remove empathy. There are far more people who couldn't afford medication or counseling which turned to illegal drugs. Drugs are the number one highest incarceration resulting crime in the US. After that is overwhelmingly nonviolent theft and property damage. The amount of people arrested for vagrancy is astonishing alone.

 

[Secret Chief]

If prisons are for profit, it provides incentive for the government to lock more people up.

The number of prisoners didn't escalate because of increased criminality...

"Meanwhile, incarceration rates began to soar. After a period of relative stability since 1925 (around 0.1 percent of the population), the overall U.S. imprisonment rate grew rapidly and continuously from 1972, increasing annually by 6 to 8 percent through 2000."
- Prison–industrial complex - Wikipedia