Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Follow the next post I commented with Frank (refresh)
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Unruly comparison?
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Follow the next post I commented with Frank (refresh)
I offered no insult whatsoever.
I criticized your expressed views & claimed former party affiliation.
If you want to make controversial remarks, then it's time for wearing
boy pants, & enduring uncomfortable rebuttals.
Er, you're the only one in here insulting people because you're upset over a debate we had over a year ago, and can't accept that someone disagrees. Move on.
You've yet to address the rebuttals I offered.
Can you?
I'd especially like to hear the justification that
Trump should've been drafted. And your
criticism of Biden for avoiding it too.
syo
Well-Known Member
Etiquette. Show off.
I said I don't want to discuss the topic with you, and that would be off-topic, anyway.
And yet you continue.
The thread is about Hitler & Trump, so this is very on-topic.
Let's look at an excerpt from your post (#3)....
"To be honest, it's insulting to Hitler to compare Trump to him. Hitler may have been a monster but he was cultured and wasn't a crude, moronic, perverted buffoon. Hitler was also a great orator and served in the military whereas Trump is a draft dodging coward whose vocabulary is on an elementary school level. Trump is just a clown and a crook. It's like comparing Hannibal Lector to a petty thief."
The above post twice portrays Hitler as far better than Trump.
I addressed that post in detail. But you've responded with only
ad hominem attacks. Why not address the issues I raised in my
rebuttal? Can you?
I don't know what you mean by this.
Did Hitler kill a Jew?
If so, I'm unaware of it.
His followers certainly did. But that's not the same, unless you're willing to apply the same standards to many historical and world leaders. Including the many USA leaders who have headed up slavery and genocide and fomented wars around the world.
Tom
That depends on what you mean by 'category'. Category of amount of evil? No. Category in competence? No. Category of what might be called, since I'm in a mood, the "dark side"? Yes
Well, Trump is a sociopath with dictatorial impulses. Trump is a bigot, no doubt, but not a genocidal bigot.
Instead I'd compare him to Mussolini in lack of competence etc.
syo
Well-Known Member
He wanted to control her. The girl became desperate.
He personally created and implemented a system of mass murder. He told people to pull the trigger. That he had others do his evil deeds for him means less than zero.
For his politics yes for his actions no.
Isn’t it technically a Godwin to compare Trump with Hitler? Insofar as he’s not systematically murdered an entire group(s) of people? Intentionally I mean.
I remember when learning of Hitler essentially there was this weird dichotomy in place. Before WWII the world politicians seemed to regard Adolf as a weird creepy unimpressive little man who somehow got Germany on his side. After the war he’s obviously he’s regarded as just an evil sob.
But then I’d watch documentaries from the German perspective and they’d talk about being under his spell and how palpable his presence was. I even bought the non fiction book the Dark Charisma of Hitler spurned by curiosity of this supposed “spell.”
When Trump was first elected there were pearl clutching warnings, both sincere and just some memes, that he was this scary fascist dictator who would either start all the wars he could or split the US in two. Or both. But in fairness, post Bush, there’s usually some angst surrounding the US elections due to potential worldwide repercussions. I mean people were predicting that Obama would be shot when he got elected.
I remember when learning of Hitler essentially there was this weird dichotomy in place. Before WWII the world politicians seemed to regard Adolf as a weird creepy unimpressive little man who somehow got Germany on his side. After the war he’s obviously he’s regarded as just an evil sob.
But then I’d watch documentaries from the German perspective and they’d talk about being under his spell and how palpable his presence was. I even bought the non fiction book the Dark Charisma of Hitler spurned by curiosity of this supposed “spell.”
When Trump was first elected there were pearl clutching warnings, both sincere and just some memes, that he was this scary fascist dictator who would either start all the wars he could or split the US in two. Or both. But in fairness, post Bush, there’s usually some angst surrounding the US elections due to potential worldwide repercussions. I mean people were predicting that Obama would be shot when he got elected.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
In other words, what the world blame him for is wrong?
I know some people believe in holocaust conspiracies. Others disagree it ever took place.
You mean Hitler didn't killing literally or he wasn't involved in the killing of thousands?
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It's more like comparing apples to oranges. Germany was already quite aggressive and nationalist long before the rise of Hitler. Hitler's Nazism was, perhaps, German nationalism on steroids, but the desire for expansionism, "lebensraum," and greater German Empire had been part of their political culture for quite some time. Their defeat in WW1 didn't really break them of that, although it might have fueled the intensity and extremism that would later come to grip the entire country. Germany was analogous to a "wounded animal" by the time of Hitler's rise to power.
America is a completely different story. Our expansionist period had already passed. The last territory we acquired by force was Hawaii in 1898. After that, we were engaged more in imperialism, which involved controlling puppet governments and engineering wars by proxy (or unofficial "police actions") - except in a few rare cases such as the World Wars.
By that time, America was already much larger than Germany, with a cornucopia of resources at our disposal to feed our burgeoning industries. We were also on much better terms with Britain and France, and we were all benefiting from the global/colonialist system which was in place at the time. We were even better off after the World Wars, when Britain and France were severely drained, along with Germany, Russia, Japan, China, and pretty much the rest of Europe and Asia devastated and in dire straits. This was the America that existed around the time Trump was born - on top of the world, at the peak of its power. And, we were supposedly on the side of the "good guys," the heroic nations which fought to make the world safe for democracy. We were on the side of those who defeated tyranny, so we were rather proud of ourselves and enjoying as much of the good life as we could get in the decades which followed - along with much partying, decadence, rowdiness, drug use, rock and roll, and all the other things that were going on by that time.
Trump and Hitler come from completely different countries with completely different backgrounds. Trump was a silver spoon rich kid born into a world superpower at its peak, while Hitler was born from more modest beginnings in what was then known as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was allied with the German Empire along with a prevalence of nationalism, anti-Semitism, and militarism.
Trump was well-off and wanted for nothing, while Hitler slept on the streets of Vienna and tried to eke out a living selling post cards in his youth.
In contrast, the America Trump would have known in his youth was a reproving America, where we had already condemned and dissociated ourselves from any kind of aggressive invasions (Kellogg-Briand Pact and the UN Charter), and we were also making strides and reforms in the area of Civil Rights. We still had a racist culture and the trappings of institutional racism, along with a high level of patriotism during the Cold War - although many youth were reacting strongly against US militarism and interventionism, such as in Vietnam. So, we were already powerful, but the direction of public opinion in the country was going against blatant abuse of power, taking advantage, or outright bullying.
But at the same time, Americans all wanted to continue living the good life, to enjoy all the luxuries, decadence, and instant gratification...but the gravy train was starting to sputter. We weren't really on top anymore, and more and more people started to see America as a nation in decline. It's not a situation comparable to Germany in the 1920s and 30s, not even close (although I understand the Germans were rather decadent themselves during those years).
America is not in any way a defeated power like Germany was. At worst, we're just not the overarching dominant superpower we once were, but maybe that's for the best. In terms of military policy and interventionism, it's hard to gauge whether Trump any aspirations for conquest, lebensraum, or anything like that. He has engaged in a war of words with North Korea, and there's also been some friction with China and Russia. NATO is still intact, although Trump doesn't always see eye to eye with the other NATO leaders, creating some dissension among our allies.
I don't think Trump is trying to recreate Nazi Germany, but perhaps he's trying to recreate America of the 1950s. In many ways, a lot of people tend to view the 1950s as some kind of ideal decade, some "golden age" for America, back when "men were men" and so forth. Families were supposed to be like "Father Knows Best" or "Leave it to Beaver." Regardless of what the reality actually was, there's a still nostalgic, idyllic view of that time in history. But it was also true that America's economy and standard of living had improved by leaps and bounds compared to what people were enduring 20 years earlier in the Great Depression.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was just asking about the individuals themselves and how people perceive both of the two because of their actions and what they say in relationship with each other.
In many ways Hitler and Trump are very different people, but a fair comparison must note they have some things in common.
For instance, both Hitler and Trump fall into the category of 'charismatic authoritarians'. Both are or were extraordinarily divisive and destructive leaders, although Hitler was an order of magnitude more destruction that Trump has been to date. And both were basically incompetent, dysfunctional men -- 'losers', to use a contemporary term -- who rose to power by exploiting the mistakes of an establishment, then miserably failed at the greatest test of their careers.
For Hitler, that greatest test was to win World War II. For Trump it has so far been to cope with a pandemic, a failing economy, and racial unrest. In both cases, the men began in a position to succeed, but messed things up through poor judgement and even worse decision making.
For instance, both Hitler and Trump fall into the category of 'charismatic authoritarians'. Both are or were extraordinarily divisive and destructive leaders, although Hitler was an order of magnitude more destruction that Trump has been to date. And both were basically incompetent, dysfunctional men -- 'losers', to use a contemporary term -- who rose to power by exploiting the mistakes of an establishment, then miserably failed at the greatest test of their careers.
For Hitler, that greatest test was to win World War II. For Trump it has so far been to cope with a pandemic, a failing economy, and racial unrest. In both cases, the men began in a position to succeed, but messed things up through poor judgement and even worse decision making.
BSM1
What? Me worry?
Not sure Hitler's greatest test was to win a war that was nonexistent when he came into power. I think his greatest test was getting an entire nation to blindly follow him into any war that his leadership would make unwinnable. Trump has yet to do this.
The war was the test with the big failure.
Trump lacks that kind of singular make or break test.
He has smaller ones, eg, USSC appointments, Covid
response, re-election, tax reform, foreign policies.