Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[Bthoth]

In Quran, God shows that he uses lineage and kinship to funnel out false claimants.

God never wrote a word of quran.

You just evidenced why lineage and the idea of a family having authority over theological description (quran) creates and created false truths.

 

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God never wrote a word of quran.

You just evidenced why lineage and the idea of a family having authority over theological description (quran) creates and created false truths.

I think logically, God would use this as a toolset. What you see as bigotry and preferring kinship - is really God using this out of wisdom to establish the true leaders in succession. It makes only those who are related to the Imams (a) closely able to falsely claim Imammate (in which a few did) instead of having it open house for all mankind to claim.

 

[Bthoth]

I think logically, God would use this as a toolset. What you see as bigotry and preferring kinship - is really God using this out of wisdom to establish the true leaders in succession.

The true leader would try to enable the majority the capability to think for themselves and end any central authority as the model.

In my eyes, that is why putting the wisdom to print, is so important. For example: commandments to stone tablets is so that each can see what the rules are to maintain personal responsibility as individuals.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In Quran, God shows that he uses lineage and kinship to funnel out false claimants. For example, in the prayer of Zakariya (a), we see he is afraid of his relatives who can claim more closer kinship then Jesus (a) to Zakariya (a), therefore he prays for Yahya (a) who would prepare for Isa (a).

Bahai Faith fails this test really as well. Baha'allah was not closely related to the Bab.

You simply did not answer the question i asked. Do you see? I asked you why God said, Jesus is son of Aaron, and how this verse is related to Qaim, as Imams pointed out.

Beside this, Imam said, the Mahdi will be born during the end time.

Also the previous prophwt before Muhammad was Jesus, but Muhammad is not from lineage of Jesus.

God gives alot more importance to Spirituality than genetics relationships.

Was Ismae son of Imam Sadiq? Did not Noah have a misguided son?

 

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You simply did not answer the question i asked. Do you see? I asked you why God said, Jesus is son of Aaron, and how this verse is related to Qaim, as Imams pointed out.

Where does the Quran say Isa (a) son of Imran (a) by the way? It says "family of Imran". But you are referring to a hadith. Anyways, I answered your question.

 

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God gives alot more importance to Spirituality than genetics relationships.

He uses lineage to funnel out false claimants though. Because it limits the potential of successors while that would not be a problem for God since he chosen them before birth, but a way for him rather to show a leader has no legitimacy.

Out of all claimants to successors to Mohammad (s), no one preceded Ali (a) in terms of kinship. This is stated in Du'a Nudba as a proof for Ali (a).

لاََ يُسْبَقُ بِقَرَابَةٍ فِي رَحِمٍ
la yusbaqu biqarabatin fi rahimin
None would precede him in blood relation (with the Prophet)

وَلاَ بِسَابِقَةٍ فِي دِينٍ
wa la bisabiqatin fi dinin
or any precede him in religion

Imam Ali (a) in a letter to Mauwiya:

Our Islam is well-known and our (greatness in the) pre-Islamic period too cannot be denied. Whatever remains has been mentioned in the words of Allah the Glorified, the Sublime:

And the blood relations are awla then others according to the Book of Allah... (Qur'an, 33:6)

He (Allah) the Sublime, also says:

Verily, of men the nearest to Abraham are surely those who followed him and this (Our) Prophet (Muhammad) and those who believe; and verily, Allah, is the Guardian of the faithful. (Qur'an, 3:68)

فَإِسْلاَمُنَا مَا قَدْ سُمِعَ، وَجَاهِلِيَّتُنَا لاَ تُدْفَعُ، وَكِتَابُ اللهِ يَجْمَعُ لَنَا مَا شَذَّ عَنَّا، وَهُوَ قَوْلُهُ سُبْحَانَهُ: ( وَأُولُو الاْرْحَامِ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلَى بِبَعْض فِي كِتَابِ اللهِ)، وَقَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى: (إِنَّ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِإِبْرَاهِيمَ لَلَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُ وَهذَا النَّبِيُّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَاللهُ وَلِيُّ الْمُؤمِنِينَ)،

Thus, we are superior firstly because of kinship and secondly because of obedience. When at Saqifah (of Banu Sa'idah) the Muhajirun contended kinship with the Messenger of Allah (S) against the Ansar, they scored over them. If that success was based on kinship then the right would be ours better than yours. Otherwise, the Ansar's contention stands.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where does the Quran say Isa (a) son of Imran (a) by the way? It says "family of Imran". But you are referring to a hadith. Anyways, I answered your question.

@Link

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:
“One tradition, which you comprehend well, is better than ten you narrate. Verily, every truth has a reality and every veracity has an illumination.” Then he said: “We, by Allah, do not consider a man from our Shia to be a Faqih unless when he is addressed through hints and allusions, he understands them.


Dude, i think you should read it carefully, to see the hint and allusion the Imams are giving.

I quote the Hadith and the verse of the Quran again for you:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim his father all from ibn Mahbub from al-Ri’ab from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following:

"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Imran than told it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be fount in his sons or grand sons then you must not deny it."



The Quranic evidence for this Hadith is in verse 3:36,

“But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female…..”​

2
Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Ibrahim ibn ‘Umar al-Yamani from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"If we would say something about a man and it would not be found in him but it would be found in his sons or his grandsons you must not reject it. It is because Allah does what he wants."

 

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You see only what your caprice wants you to see. Unfortunately, I can't help you in this regard. I will share hadiths naming the Twelve Imams though.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He uses lineage to funnel out false claimants though. Because it limits the potential of successors while that would not be a problem for God since he chosen them before birth, but a way for him rather to show a leader has no legitimacy.

Out of all claimants to successors to Mohammad (s), no one preceded Ali (a) in terms of kinship. This is stated in Du'a Nudba as a proof for Ali (a).

لاََ يُسْبَقُ بِقَرَابَةٍ فِي رَحِمٍ
la yusbaqu biqarabatin fi rahimin
None would precede him in blood relation (with the Prophet)

وَلاَ بِسَابِقَةٍ فِي دِينٍ
wa la bisabiqatin fi dinin
or any precede him in religion

Imam Ali (a) in a letter to Mauwiya:

Our Islam is well-known and our (greatness in the) pre-Islamic period too cannot be denied. Whatever remains has been mentioned in the words of Allah the Glorified, the Sublime:

And the blood relations are awla then others according to the Book of Allah... (Qur'an, 33:6)

He (Allah) the Sublime, also says:

Verily, of men the nearest to Abraham are surely those who followed him and this (Our) Prophet (Muhammad) and those who believe; and verily, Allah, is the Guardian of the faithful. (Qur'an, 3:68)


Thus, we are superior firstly because of kinship and secondly because of obedience. When at Saqifah (of Banu Sa'idah) the Muhajirun contended kinship with the Messenger of Allah (S) against the Ansar, they scored over them. If that success was based on kinship then the right would be ours better than yours. Otherwise, the Ansar's contention stands.

These are specific to those cases. We cannot make a general rule.
Notice Yahya came before Jesus. But Jesus was not Son of Yahya!

Yahya and Jesus, is like the Bab and Baha'u'llah. One comes before the other, to give the good news of coming a greater Messenger.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You see only what your caprice wants you to see. Unfortunately, I can't help you in this regard. I will share hadiths naming the Twelve Imams though.

I already know the Hadithes you want to quote.

But what do you see from the Hadith I quoted above? What is the purpose of it? How do you see it?

 

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I already know the Hadithes you want to quote.

But what do you see from the Hadith I quoted above? What is the purpose of it? How do you see it?

It means if Imam Jaffar (a) says "my son will do this and this", don't deny it, even if it's not Musa (a) but another Imam (a) in his offspring.

 

[Link]

These are specific to those cases. We cannot make a general rule.
Notice Yahya came before Jesus. But Jesus was not Son of Yahya!

Yahya and Jesus, is like the Bab and Baha'u'llah. One comes before the other, to give the good news of coming a greater Messenger.

Of course you can make a general rule. That's the purpose of Quran revealing the emphasis on kinship.

Isa (a) was the closest in terms of kinship to Yahya (a) in terms of succession of a younger person succeeding older. There could've been problems in terms of kinship if Isa (A) succeeded Zakariya (a) though because Zakariya (a) had younger siblings that might claim leadership falsely.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It means if Imam Jaffar (a) says "my son will do this and this", don't deny it, even if it's not Musa (a) but another Imam (a) in his offspring.

Ok let's consider this as a possible explanation and examin it.

was anything that Sadiq had said Musa will do it and it was not done by Musa? And then someone else did it?

 

[Link]

Ok let's consider this as a possible explanation and examin it.

was anything that Sadiq had said Musa will do it and it was not done by Musa? And then someone else did it?

You can conclude from this hadith, that something of this nature happened with one of the Imams (a) with respect to another. Which one, I don't know.

 

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I already know the Hadithes you want to quote.

The emphasis on those hadiths, is one Imam (a) is son of another, then they say the Mahdi (a) is son of Hassan (Al-askari) (a). The previous words given context to what is meant by son of Hasan Al-Askari (a).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Of course you can make a general rule. That's the purpose of Quran revealing the emphasis on kinship.

Isa (a) was the closest in terms of kinship to Yahya (a) in terms of succession of a younger person succeeding older. There could've been problems in terms of kinship if Isa (A) succeeded Zakariya (a) though because Zakariya (a) had younger siblings that might claim leadership falsely.

I am sorry i dont follow what you are saying.

John was yonger than Jesus by about 4 years.

Remember you are talking a successor must be a son, or grand son of previous prophet Jesus was not so or grandson of John. In fact Jesus was older than Yahya (John).

Beside this, Baha'u'llah had answered the correct understanding of Hadithes that talks about Mahdi being son of Hassan:

All that thou hast heard regarding Muḥammad the son of Ḥasan—may the souls of all that are immersed in the oceans of the spirit be offered up for His sake—is true beyond the shadow of
a doubt, and we all verily bear allegiance unto Him. But the imáms of the Faith have fixed His abode in the city of Jábulqá, which they have depicted in strange and marvellous signs. To interpret this city according to the literal meaning of the tradition would indeed prove impossible, nor can such a city ever be found.
Wert thou to search the uttermost corners of the earth, nay probe its length and breadth for as long as God’s eternity hath lasted and His sovereignty will endure, thou wouldst never find a city such as they have described, for the entirety of the earth could neither contain nor encompass it.

If thou wouldst lead Me unto this city, I could assuredly lead thee unto this holy Being, Whom the people have conceived according to what they possess and not to that which pertaineth unto Him! Since this is not in thy power, thou hast no recourse but to interpret symbolically the accounts and traditions that have been reported from these luminous souls.

And, as such an interpretation is needed for the traditions pertaining to the aforementioned city, so too is it required for this holy Being. When thou hast understood this interpretation, thou shalt no longer stand in need of “transformation” or aught else.


Know then that, inasmuch as all the Prophets are but one and the same soul, spirit, name, and attribute, thou must likewise see them all as bearing the name Muḥammad and as being the son of Ḥasan, as having appeared from the Jábulqá of God’s power and from the Jábulṣá of His mercy.

For by Jábulqá is meant none other than the treasure-houses of eternity in the all highest heaven and the cities of the unseen in the supernal realm. We bear witness that Muḥammad, the son of Ḥasan, was indeed in Jábulqá and appeared therefrom. Likewise, He Whom God shall make manifest abideth in that city until such time as God will have established Him upon the seat of His sovereignty. We, verily, acknowledge this truth and bear allegiance unto each and every one of them. We have chosen here to be brief in our elucidation of the meanings of Jábulqá, but if thou be of them that truly believe, thou shalt indeed comprehend all the true meanings of the mysteries enshrined within these Tablets.

But as to Him Who appeared in the year sixty, He standeth in need of neither transformation nor interpretation, for His name was Muḥammad, and He was a descendent of the Imáms of the Faith. Thus it can be truly said of Him that He was the son of Ḥasan, as is undoubtedly clear and evident unto thine eminence. Nay, He it is Who fashioned that name and created it for Himself, were ye to observe with the eye of God.

Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You can conclude from this hadith, that something of this nature happened with one of the Imams (a) with respect to another. Which one, I don't know.

Please try and find, if it was something as you are suggesting. You know, we cannot build our Faith based on guessing. It could have a consequence.

 

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I don't know if you are aware of this hadith:

Chain- Abu Jafar (a) says "The Messenger (s) of God said to Ali ibn Talib (a), oh Ali, I am awla to the believers then themselves (hint to verse 33:6), then you after Awla to the believers then themselves, then Hassan, then Hussain, then Ali son of Hussain, then Mohammad son of Ali, then Jaffar son of Mohammad, then Musa son of Jaffar, then Ali son of Musa, then Mohamad son of Ali, then Ali son of Mohamad, then Hassan son of Ali, then the proof/argument son of Hassan, the one with him ends the rulership/taking place/representing (khilafa) and succession (wasiya), and will be hidden/hiding for a long period, then will appear and fill the earth with justice just as it was filled with oppression and injustice.


I didn't emphasize on all the hadiths that say these things (1) that Imam Mahdi (a) is the last proof and leader appointed by God are many (2) The hadiths saying he will go into hiding are many and then appear are many.

 

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Remember you are talking a successor must be a son, or grand son of previous prophet Jesus was not so or grandson of John. In fact Jesus was older than Yahya (John).

Where is your evidence of this claim. It would undermine a lot of the Quranic emphasis. I never said it had to be son, I said there has to be some sort of kinship that is close. Yahya (a) and Isa (a) were cousins like Mohammad (s) and Ali (a).

Bab and Baha'allah were not cousins.

 

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Please try and find, if it was something as you are suggesting. You know, we cannot build our Faith based on guessing. It could have a consequence.

The irony is huge with this statement.