Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[danieldemol]

Yes, I mean, the Imam teachings were among Muslims in the following centuries. So, they had the guide.
Also as Abdulbaha says, when 500 years passed, Rumi renewed Islam, so, it lasted another 500 years after that, till 1844, when it was its end time.

So you are saying a human non-Shia poet was able to rival the Shia Imams for extension of the islamic faith? If 1 human is able to rival 11 imams for renewal why not sack the imams and replace them with human poets? Clearly the latter is more competent than the former in my understanding of what you are saying.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you are saying a human non-Shia poet was able to rival the Shia Imams for extension of the islamic faith? If 1 human is able to rival 11 imams for renewal why not sack the imams and replace them with human poets? Clearly the latter is more competent than the former in my understanding of what you are saying.

Where do they get this stuff from?

Shia Imams continued to be the leaders.

Except when they got corrupted?

Abdulbaha says, when 500 years passed, Rumi renewed Islam, so, it lasted another 500 years after that, till 1844,

Then Rumi renewed Islam? Really? It was no longer corrupted? That is the Rumi branch of Islam.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So you are saying a human non-Shia poet was able to rival the Shia Imams for extension of the islamic faith? If 1 human is able to rival 11 imams for renewal why not sack the imams and replace them with human poets? Clearly the latter is more competent than the former in my understanding of what you are saying.

Rumi is not just a poet. He was receiving revelations as he had said it, in his own works. Many Iranian people consider him as being inspired by God.

 

[danieldemol]

Rumi is not just a poet. He was receiving revelations as he had said it, in his own works. Many Iranian people consider him as being inspired by God.

So what do you claim he is, a prophet, an imam, a...?
And how does this fit in with the Baha'i idea that only every thousand years a messenger comes?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So what do you claim he is, a prophet, an imam, a...?
And how does this fit in with the Baha'i idea that only every thousand years a messenger comes?

Every about a 1000 years is to bring a new Revelation. Like Christianity, Islam, Bahai...
Rumi was probably a prophet. A minor prophet

 

[danieldemol]

Every about a 1000 years is to bring a new Revelation. Like Christianity, Islam, Bahai...
Rumi was probably a prophet. A minor prophet

So your view is that the 11 imams were followed by a minor prophet who recognised abu Bakr even though to Baha'i who follow the Shia succession he (Abu Bakr) was more or less a covenant breaker?

I'd be prepared to bet you will find no reference to Rumi as a "prophet" in the Baha'i writings, at most you will find him referenced as a mystic which in the Baha'i Faith is a station humans can attain to in my view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So your view is that the 11 imams were followed by a minor prophet who recognised abu Bakr even though to Baha'i who follow the Shia succession he (Abu Bakr) was more or less a covenant breaker?

I'd be prepared to bet you will find no reference to Rumi as a "prophet" in the Baha'i writings, at most you will find him referenced as a mystic which in the Baha'i Faith is a station humans can attain to in my view.

Yes, Baha'u'llah said God can inspire people to guide others. Abdu'l-Baha confirmed that about Rumi.
There is nothing wrong about, coming a minor prophet after an Imam.
In Judaism, there were more than 12 minor prophets. But only 12 of them were the Successors of Moses.
Same in Islam. There were 12 Imams who were Khalifs. But there were some minor prophets, one of them being Rumi.
These Prophets, though, are not one of the Successors.

 

[danieldemol]

Yes, Baha'u'llah said God can inspire people to guide others. Abdu'l-Baha confirmed that about Rumi.

So for example God could inspire a covenant breaker to guide Baha'is?

There is nothing wrong about, coming a minor prophet after an Imam.
In Judaism, there were more than 12 minor prophets. But only 12 of them were the Successors of Moses.
Same in Islam. There were 12 Imams who were Khalifs. But there were some minor prophets, one of them being Rumi.
These Prophets, though, are not one of the Successors.

I think you may be hiding behind the English language here.
In English anyone inspired by God can be called as a prophet, but in the Baha'i faith the term such as "nabi" (prophet) or "rasool" (messenger) is reserved for a people who have infallibility, not for fallible humans such as Rumi who are considered in the Bahai faith to have recieved some degree of guidance through the infallibles but not considered infallible themselves according to my understanding.

The correct term for these people such as Rumi in the Baha'i faith is "mystics" according to my understanding.

Therefore I challenge you to find any reference in the Baha'i writings to Rumi as a "prophet" as opposed to a human considered to be inspired through the Prophets and their successors.

 

[Link]

Rumi dance rituals has nothing to do with original Islam. He is a good poet but is an innovator.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So for example God could inspire a covenant breaker to guide Baha'is?

I think you may be hiding behind the English language here.
In English anyone inspired by God can be called as a prophet, but in the Baha'i faith the term such as "nabi" (prophet) or "rasool" (messenger) is reserved for a people who have infallibility, not for fallible humans such as Rumi who are considered in the Bahai faith to have recieved some degree of guidance through the infallibles but not considered infallible themselves according to my understanding.

The correct term for these people such as Rumi in the Baha'i faith is "mystics" according to my understanding.

Therefore I challenge you to find any reference in the Baha'i writings to Rumi as a "prophet" as opposed to a human considered to be inspired through the Prophets and their successors.

Infallibility as Baha'u'llah says, are in different degrees. The most great Infallibility is for Manifestation of God, such as Baha'u'llah. And for sure, Rumi was infallible. You can search what Abdulbaha said about Rumi.

Baha'u'llah also quoted many of the sayings of Rumi in Seven Valley!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Rumi dance rituals has nothing to do with original Islam. He is a good poet but is an innovator.

These dances are inventions. It wasnt something Rumi taught or did. People misinterpreted his poetry.
Just as in Quran, wine, can mean divine love and guidance (not a literal wine), also in Rumi works he, expresses spiritual happiness with "dance". It is a metaphor, which people misinterpreted him.

 

[Link]

These dances are inventions. It wasnt something Rumi taught or did. People misinterpreted his poetry.
Just as in Quran, wine, can mean divine love and guidance (not a literal wine), also in Rumi works he, expresses spiritual happiness with "dance". It is a metaphor, which people misinterpreted him.

No he organized the rituals. It was not people after him, but it was him who introduced them.

 

[danieldemol]

Infallibility as Baha'u'llah says, are in different degrees. The most great Infallibility is for Manifestation of God, such as Baha'u'llah. And for sure, Rumi was infallible. You can search what Abdulbaha said about Rumi.

Abdu'l-Baha did not say rumi was "infallible" anywhere that I know of, perhaps you can link to an example?

Baha'u'llah also quoted many of the sayings of Rumi in Seven Valley!

Well Baha'u'llah borrowed knowledge from many human sources, that does not indicate he thought they were infallible with respect to all their sayings and doings in my view.

For example Baha'u'llah quoted many disbelievers sayings in the Kitab-i-Iqan, does that mean he thought they were infallible in all they said?

 

[danieldemol]

No he organized the rituals. It was not people after him, but it was him who introduced them.

FWIW wikipedia states, 'Rumi believed passionately in the use of music, poetry and dance as a path for reaching God. For Rumi, music helped devotees to focus their whole being on the divine and to do this so intensely that the soul was both destroyed and resurrected. It was from these ideas that the practice of whirling Dervishes developed into a ritual form.'

Although i note there is a "citation required" at the foot of that text so it may be unreliable.

However there is a citation for Rumi's favourite musical instrument,
'Rumi's favourite musical instrument was the ney (reed flute).[23]'

Source: Rumi - Wikipedia

 

[InvestigateTruth]

FWIW wikipedia states, 'Rumi believed passionately in the use of music, poetry and dance as a path for reaching God. For Rumi, music helped devotees to focus their whole being on the divine and to do this so intensely that the soul was both destroyed and resurrected. It was from these ideas that the practice of whirling Dervishes developed into a ritual form.'

Although i note there is a "citation required" at the foot of that text so it may be unreliable.

However there is a citation for Rumi's favourite musical instrument,
'Rumi's favourite musical instrument was the ney (reed flute).[23]'

Source: Rumi - Wikipedia

Just because Wikipedia says so, it doesn't mean it is all correct info.

I am giving you the Bahai view as I understand. You are free to have your own view.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No he organized the rituals. It was not people after him, but it was him who introduced them.

I would say, history of those days is not really clear. I believe people made their own rituals in his name.
Anywas, Muhammad had said, the lifespan of His ummah is half a Day or a Day. Abdulbaha wrote, when half a Day was passed, God inspired Rumi and renewed Islamic original teachings and then Islam lasted another 500 years.

 

[danieldemol]

Just because Wikipedia says so, it doesn't mean it is all correct info.

I am giving you the Bahai view as I understand. You are free to have your own view.

Well my experience has been that the BBC is generally more reliable than some random internet Baha'i, but of course it is stating the obvious to say that we are free to our own views.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well my experience has been that the BBC is generally more reliable than some random internet Baha'i, but of course it is stating the obvious to say that we are free to our own views.

Yah think? lol That darn BBC, they're always lying, never trust them.

 

[Link]

I would say, history of those days is not really clear. I believe people made their own rituals in his name.
Anywas, Muhammad had said, the lifespan of His ummah is half a Day or a Day. Abdulbaha wrote, when half a Day was passed, God inspired Rumi and renewed Islamic original teachings and then Islam lasted another 500 years.

It is actually very well clear that he invented the whirling dervishes. It's not disputed and it's well known.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well my experience has been that the BBC is generally more reliable than some random internet Baha'i, but of course it is stating the obvious to say that we are free to our own views.

Well, my experience from reading Rumi's works, convinced me, that Rumi was inspired from the same source as Prophets.
I suggest you read his interpretation of the Killing the Four Birds and their Resurrection!