Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[Truthseeker]

In the Qur'an it says:

He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; — these are the basis of the Book — and others are figurative.
Muhammad, "The Qur'an", 3.7

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muḥammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 3:7

The question is: where does a person decide what is clear (or perspicuous) and what is figurative (or allegorical). A rule of thumb might be, "what is it that is important for us to know, and what is not important."

Is it important to know what exactly heaven and hell are? The point is if you are in heaven, you have bliss, if you are hell you are in torment. Is it important if the miracles reported by Moses really happened? I don't think so. The point is is Moses a Prophet of God? Isn't it enough that the Qur'an says He is a Prophet of God?

We all have our different interpretations, and I don't find it important that your understanding is different.

 

[Link]

In the Qur'an it says:

He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; — these are the basis of the Book — and others are figurative.
Muhammad, "The Qur'an", 3.7

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muḥammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 3:7

The question is: where does a person decide what is clear (or perspicuous) and what is figurative (or allegorical). A rule of thumb might be, "what is it that is important for us to know, and what is not important."

Is it important to know what exactly heaven and hell are? The point is if you are in heaven, you have bliss, if you are hell you are in torment. Is it important if the miracles reported by Moses really happened? I don't think so. The point is is Moses a Prophet of God? Isn't it enough that the Qur'an says He is a Prophet of God?

We all have our different interpretations, and I don't find it important that your understanding is different.

Salam

3:7 says two things come from Quran, clear signs which is the original book, and the other is ambiguity/unclearness. Per the verse itself as well hadiths verify, it's forbidden to follow unclear. There is no universally unclear verses or universally clear verses, something maybe clear to me but not clear to you and vice versa. However, as soon we begin to hold that Quran says unclear things and follow it, per this verse, we only do it due to transgression.

The Quran however is said to be a clear book. Now this itself may seem like a contradiction, if you don't keep in mind, that per Quran, there is a sorcery from Satan pertaining to every revelation including Quran from Satan. That is the reason why hard hearts incline to ambiguity rather then it's clear signs.

Hadiths are part of the solution, but false hadiths are part of the problem.

The Quran is saying, do not build any of it on unclear meaning. And Imam Ali (a) says it's darkness can only be cleared by itself.

So we are to resort whatever is unclear to us, to what we know is clear from God in the Quran.

I believe you guys do the opposite. You make unclear what is clear to everyone, and expect people leave what is clear for unclear and build on what as no clear proof in Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

3:7 says two things come from Quran, clear signs which is the original book, and the other is ambiguity/unclearness. Per the verse itself as well hadiths verify, it's forbidden to follow unclear. There is no universally unclear verses or universally clear verses, something maybe clear to me but not clear to you and vice versa. However, as soon we begin to hold that Quran says unclear things and follow it, per this verse, we only do it due to transgression.

The Quran however is said to be a clear book. Now this itself may seem like a contradiction, if you don't keep in mind, that per Quran, there is a sorcery from Satan pertaining to every revelation including Quran from Satan. That is the reason why hard hearts incline to ambiguity rather then it's clear signs.

Hadiths are part of the solution, but false hadiths are part of the problem.

The Quran is saying, do not build any of it on unclear meaning. And Imam Ali (a) says it's darkness can only be cleared by itself.

So we are to resort whatever is unclear to us, to what we know is clear from God in the Quran.

I believe you guys do the opposite. You make unclear what is clear to everyone, and expect people leave what is clear for unclear and build on what as no clear proof in Quran.

Mutishabihat verses are those that require Taweel. Taweel means knowing the meaning of symbols and Similitudes.

So, for example, what does "Seven Fat Cow" represent?

in Surrah of Joseph, it says, it means "Seven years of Prosperity".

And only Prophet Joseph could explain the Taweel of the Prophetic Event (Hadith). The ordinary believers would not be able to know. Because Prophetical signs came from God, Not from human, hence its interpretation must also come from God, not from imagination of human.

This is one the important things that Surrah of Joseph teaches. It is not just a nice story:

In their stories there is truly a lesson for people of reason. This message cannot be a fabrication, rather ˹it is˺ a confirmation of previous revelation, a detailed explanation of all things, a guide, and a mercy for people of faith.

Thus, many of the verses of the Quran are Mutishabihat, and only Muhammad, and Imams could have explained them. Some of them, they explained. And the rest was left for the Qaim to explain in its own time.

وَلَقَدۡ جِئۡنَـٰهُم بِكِتَـٰبࣲ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ عَلَىٰ عِلۡمٍ هُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لِّقَوۡمࣲ یُؤۡمِنُونَ ۝٥٢
7:53
هَلۡ یَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا تَأۡوِیلَهُۥۚ یَوۡمَ یَأۡتِی تَأۡوِیلُهُۥ یَقُولُ ٱلَّذِینَ نَسُوهُ مِن قَبۡلُ قَدۡ جَاۤءَتۡ رُسُلُ رَبِّنَا بِٱلۡحَقِّ فَهَل لَّنَا مِن شُفَعَاۤءَ فَیَشۡفَعُوا۟ لَنَاۤ أَوۡ نُرَدُّ فَنَعۡمَلَ غَیۡرَ ٱلَّذِی كُنَّا نَعۡمَلُۚ قَدۡ خَسِرُوۤا۟ أَنفُسَهُمۡ وَضَلَّ عَنۡهُم مَّا كَانُوا۟ یَفۡتَرُونَ
7:54


"We have given them the Book; We have spelled it out knowingly as a guideline and mercy for folk who believe.
Are they only waiting for it to be interpreted? The day its interpretation comes along, those who have already forgotten it will say: "Our Lord´s messengers did bring the Truth! Have we any intercessors to intercede for us? Or should we be sent back, then we would act so differently from the way we have been acting." They have lost their souls and what they have been inventing has left them in the lurch."

هل ينظرون إلا تأويله يوم يأتي تأويله يقول الذين نسوه من قبل قد جاءت رسل ربنا بالحق فهل لنا من شفعاء فيشفعوا لنا أو نرد فنعمل غير الذي كنا نعمل قد خسروا أنفسهم وضل عنهم ما كانوا يفترون)] (الاعراف - 53). يوم ظهور المهدي عليه السلام يوم تأويل القرآن [1534 - (القمي) " ذلك في القائم عليه السلام ويوم القيامة "] * 1534 - المصادر: *: القمي: ج‌ 1 ص‌ 235 - وقوله: هل ينظرون إلا تأويله يوم يأتي تأويله، فهو من الآيات التي تأويلها بعد تنزيلها، قال: - *: الصافي: ج‌ 2 ص‌ 203 - عن القمي، وفيه " قيام القائم ".
المحجة: ص‌ 72 - عن القمي. *: البرهان: ج‌ 2، ص‌ 23، ح‌ 1 - عن القمي. وفيه " قيام القائم ". *: نور الثقلين: ج‌ 2 ص‌ 38، ح‌ 149 - عن القمي وفيه " قيام القائم " * * * [(فانتظروا إني معكم من المنتظرين)] (الاعراف - 71) في انتظار الفرج [1535 - (الامام الرضا عليه السلام) " أو ليس تعلم أن انتظار الفرج من الفرج. إن الله يقول: * (انتظروا إني معكم من المنتظرين) * "] *

معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

From Tafseer Alqumi, this verse is about, those verses, that their interpretation will come at the time of the Qaim.

 

[Link]

If "figurative" verses requiring tawil is what is meant, it would not condemn those who follow those.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If "figurative" verses requiring tawil is what is meant, it would not condemn those who follow those.

the reason no body is supposed to follow them, is because no body knows their interpretation except God and the chosen ones. If they interpret them according to their own imagination, they will be mislead and cause others to be mislead.

It is for this reason, Quran says not to follow them. Meaning, leave them to Allah to reveal their meaning in due time.

Instead they need to learn their interpretation from God, when He Reveals it through the Qaim.

 

[Link]

the reason no body is supposed to follow them, is because no body knows their interpretation except God and the chosen ones. If they interpret them according to their own imagination, they will be mislead and cause others to be mislead.

It is for this reason, Quran says not to follow them. Meaning, leave them to Allah to reveal their meaning in due time.

Instead they need to learn their interpretation from God, when He Reveals it through the Qaim.

There was Imams (a) though and Rasool (s), so that doesn't make sense. The Quran tells us instead to ask them and seek their answers when we don't know, so this definitely is not it. As well, the hadiths say the unclearness should not be followed and that those who follow the best of what is revealed, refers to those who follow the clear signs.

We've went through many of these hadiths including ones saying Imams (a) are of it's clear signs and Abu Bakr and Umar are of it's unclearness that comes from it.

There is also an additional thing, a lot of Quran describes itself as a clear book and that it's signs are bright and clear and it's a book of insights. The seemingly contradiction with 3:7 is solved when we keep in mind what Quran describes as the reason why what Satan cast is followed in Surah Hajj. It's due to hard hearts - when hearts are hard they cling to what Satan cast pertaining to Quran. And Surah Maeeda shows that what is done it is words of God are taken out of place (ie. decontextualized).

 

[Link]

There was Imams (a) though and Rasool (s), so that doesn't make sense. The Quran tells us instead to ask them and seek their answers when we don't know, so this definitely is not it. As well, the hadiths say the unclearness should not be followed and that those who follow the best of what is revealed, refers to those who follow the clear signs.

We've went through many of these hadiths including ones saying Imams (a) are of it's clear signs and Abu Bakr and Umar are of it's unclearness that comes from it.

There is also an additional thing, a lot of Quran describes itself as a clear book and that it's signs are bright and clear and it's a book of insights. The seemingly contradiction with 3:7 is solved when we keep in mind what Quran describes as the reason why what Satan cast is followed in Surah Hajj. It's due to hard hearts - when hearts are hard they cling to what Satan cast pertaining to Quran. And Surah Maeeda shows that what is done it is words of God are taken out of place (ie. decontextualized).

@stevecanuck and @Augustus are discussing the clear vs unclear issue. I think this solves the seemingly contradiction. In fact, I will make a thread about what hadiths say about 3:7 and tag you guys all in it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There was Imams (a) though and Rasool (s), so that doesn't make sense. The Quran tells us instead to ask them and seek their answers when we don't know, so this definitely is not it. As well, the hadiths say the unclearness should not be followed and that those who follow the best of what is revealed, refers to those who follow the clear signs.

We've went through many of these hadiths including ones saying Imams (a) are of it's clear signs and Abu Bakr and Umar are of it's unclearness that comes from it.

There is also an additional thing, a lot of Quran describes itself as a clear book and that it's signs are bright and clear and it's a book of insights. The seemingly contradiction with 3:7 is solved when we keep in mind what Quran describes as the reason why what Satan cast is followed in Surah Hajj. It's due to hard hearts - when hearts are hard they cling to what Satan cast pertaining to Quran. And Surah Maeeda shows that what is done it is words of God are taken out of place (ie. decontextualized).

Yes, the Imams and the Prophet interpreted some of the verses, but they left a lot for the Qaim. I already quoted the Qur'an.

Have you heard that, the Book is Three times this Quran. The other Two Volumes come with the Qaim? It is an allusion that Muhammad had one revelation and when the Qaim comes, there will be two more Revelations (the Bab and Baha'u'llah's Revelations)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link
Here is a well-known Hadith:

وعن موسى بن عمر بن يزيد الصيقل عن الحسن بن محبوب عن صالح ابن حمزة عن ابان عن ابي عبد الله (ع) قال العلم سبعة وعشرون حرفا فجميع ما جاءت به الرسل حرفان فلم يعرف الناس حتى اليوم غير الحرفين فإذا قام القائم (ع) اخرج الخمسة والعشرين حرفا فبثها في الناس وضم إليها الحرفين حتى يبثها سبعة وعشرين حرفا

مختصر بصائر الدّرجات - ط المطبعة الحيدرية - الحلي، الشيخ عزّ الدين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

"Knowledge is twenty seven letters. All that was taught by Messengers to People are only Two letters. When the Qaim rises, He will bring the other Twenty five letters."


From this Hadith, we understand how much hidden knowledge is within the words of God, that was not revealed prior to the Qaim! Consider how this matches with Bahai belief, that, most of the knowledge in the Quran, is revealed now.

Moreover consider, why the Quran says, On that Day, believing in Quran does not have benefits anymore.

 

[Link]

@Link
Here is a well-known Hadith:

وعن موسى بن عمر بن يزيد الصيقل عن الحسن بن محبوب عن صالح ابن حمزة عن ابان عن ابي عبد الله (ع) قال العلم سبعة وعشرون حرفا فجميع ما جاءت به الرسل حرفان فلم يعرف الناس حتى اليوم غير الحرفين فإذا قام القائم (ع) اخرج الخمسة والعشرين حرفا فبثها في الناس وضم إليها الحرفين حتى يبثها سبعة وعشرين حرفا

مختصر بصائر الدّرجات - ط المطبعة الحيدرية - الحلي، الشيخ عزّ الدين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

"Knowledge is twenty seven letters. All that was taught by Messengers to People are only Two letters. When the Qaim rises, He will bring the other Twenty five letters."


From this Hadith, we understand how much hidden knowledge is within the words of God, that was not revealed prior to the Qaim! Consider how this matches with Bahai belief, that, most of the knowledge in the Quran, is revealed now.

Moreover consider, why the Quran says, On that Day, believing in Quran does not have benefits anymore.

Imam Baqir (a) is said to the one to cleave the knowledge of the first and last and him being in the Torah as that by hadiths in my view, is "the one God wills end" that Musa (a) was praying for God to untie the knot on his tongue by.

Imam Mahdi (a) will spread that knowledge to all of humanity and revive what was lost from the time of Imam Mohamad Al-Baqir (a).