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Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Can you explain how this is related or applicable to Bahais, or Bahai belief, if that's what you think it is applicable?
I think i understand now. You are saying the things that are happening to Muslims in middle east, is not punishment from Allah, but they are getting prosecuted for the cause of Allah?
How can you tell if it is punishment or prosecution though?
If God punishes a people, they can claim or wistfully imagine, God is not punishing them, but they are getting prosecuted for the cause of Allah.
The test, is, how they are contributing to the cause of God!
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I am not sure what you are trying to prove Link. I see all your quoted passages are just applicable to the Message given by Baha'u'llah?
لِكُلِّ نَبَإٍ مُسْتَقَرٌّ ۚ وَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ | For every prophecy there is a [preordained] setting, and soon you will know. | Al-An'aam : 67
Islam is not exempt from this, I see Islam is the current focus of this verse.
وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلٌ ۖ فَإِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً ۖ وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ | There is a [preordained] time for every nation: when their time comes, they shall not defer it by a single hour nor shall they advance it. | Al-A'raaf : 34
I see this is what Islam now faces from the rejection of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
أَلَمْ يَأْتِهِمْ نَبَأُ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَعَادٍ وَثَمُودَ وَقَوْمِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَأَصْحَابِ مَدْيَنَ وَالْمُؤْتَفِكَاتِ ۚ أَتَتْهُمْ رُسُلُهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ۖ فَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيَظْلِمَهُمْ وَلَٰكِنْ كَانُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ يَظْلِمُونَ | Has there not come to them the account of those who were before them—the people of Noah, ‘Ad, and Tham£d, and the people of Abraham, the inhabitants of Midian, and the towns that were overturned? Their apostles brought them manifest proofs. So it was not Allah who wronged them, but it was they who used to wrong themselves. | At-Tawba : 70
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Did you know that, the idea that the Mahdi is in Gheyba (occultation) before His rise was false according to Hadithes and the Quran?
The Imams said, Mahdi is a person born during End Time:
عن ام هانئ الثقفية قال : غدوت على سيدي محمد بن علي الباقر عليه السلام فقلت له : ياسيدي آية في كتاب الله عزوجل عرضت بقلبي أقلقتني وأسهرتني قال : فاسئلي يا ام هانئ ؟ قالت قلت : قول الله عزوجل (( فَلَا أُقسِمُ بِالخُنَّسِ * الجَوَارِ الكُنَّسِ )) قال : نعم المسألة سألتني يا ام هانئ هذا مولود في آخر الزمان هو المهدي من هذه العترة تكون له حيرة وغيبة يضل فيها أقوام ويهتدي فيها أقوام فيا طوبى لك إن أدركته ويا طوبى من أدركه
Ammih Hani asks Imam Baghir, that a verse of Quran has come to my heart and is making me wonder.
Imam Baghir says, ask me Ammi Hani.
She says it is the verse that Allah says:
"So I swear by the retreating stars, Those that run and disappear"
Imam said, Yes, you asked me a good question Ammih Hani. This verse is about the One who will be born at the Time of End, He is the Mahdi of this Family. For Him, there will be a period of perplexity and a period of disappearance, during which some people get mislead and some will be guided. Happy are those who will recognize Him.
The Ulama again made a mistake here, and mislead the Ummah of Shia. They thought Mahdi was born right after the 11th Imam and then He disappeared twice, whereas Imam Sadiq says, the Two disappearances of the Qaim, is after His rise:
It is recorded in Bihar, vol. 51-53:
Abu Basir said to Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that Abu Ja’far, Baqir (a.s.) often said: “The Qaim of Muhammad’s progeny will disappear twice; one will be longer than the other.”
He said: “Yes, but that will not be until the army of the tribe of so and so disagrees, life becomes so difficult, the Sufyani rises, distresses and calamities increase and death and killing spread among people until they resort to the sanctum of Allah and the sanctum of the Prophet.
How do we know from this Hadith, that the Two Disappearance are after His rise And Not before? We know that because the Sufyani and Qaim rise at the same time:
It is narrated by Muhammad bin Muslim that Imam Baqir (as) said: “The rising of as-Sufyani and the rising of the Qaim will be in the same year.”
And by disappearances of the Qaim, is meant a short one, where He is in Mecca and people do not recognize Him, and then another longer disappearance which is His imprisonment:
Ubayd ibn Zurara from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has narrated that "Al-Qa’im will disappear from the public sight twice. In one of them he will attain Hajj. He will see the people but they will not see him."
The second Disappearance is imprisonment and Martyrdom:
Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said:
“The master of this matter has aspects like those that four of the prophets have had; an aspect of Musa, one of Jesus Christ, one of Joseph and one of Muhammad (peace be upon them).”
I asked: “Which aspect of Musa (a.s.)?” He said: “Afraid and lying in wait.” I said: “Which one of Jesus Christ (a.s.)?” He said: “It will be said about him (Imam Mahdi) as that has been said about Jesus Christ (a.s.).” I said: “Which of Joseph?” He said: “Prison and disappearance.”......
None of these Hadithes match with the belief that Ulama of Shia have invented and promoted! But they 100% match with the Bab. In the first year of His Revelation the Bab left His town to Mecca. He was among multitudes of Muslims yet, they were not seeing Him. Then He comes back to His town. Ulama make a mischief and arrest, and imprison Him. Even the Duration of His imprisonment matches with Hadithes.
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Salam
I will be adding more verses, but they contextualize the verses I quoted from Surah Isra. I don't think they are applicable to your Prophets. The people were not tried by harms and benefits during time of these two Prophets like Pharaoh was tried with plagues and other things and then they ask God to remove it. Or the smoke during Mohammad (S) time, in which they asked for it to remove, and they still went back to disbelief.
And there was no mass destruction for cities. The thing is all the destroyed nations talk is for us to prepare for the Mahdi (a). This is because the Quran says there won't be a city but will be destroyed or punished a severe punishment. This in the case they reject him.
The prosecution of the people is one thing, and punishment of God is another. You mixing the things show you don't understand Quran.
It was your condition that if Messengers are rejected, punishment comes. I made no such condition. I made the condition if God's punishment in this world as in physical destruction comes, then a Messenger has to be sent.
The Quran says all cities will be destroyed or punished severely before the day of judgment. The verses I am quoting and will add more, show, the context of that. It refers to real destruction of cities. Not wars, it means God does it. Not humans.
As for the Mahdi (a) - The way Quran talks about him, is that his proof will be manifest to all cities and all cities will be tried by him. This is why the warnings are emphasized, otherwise, they don't make sense. I quoted verses in Surah Isra, you give it your own interpretation, but those verses have an entire theme and context and repetition in Quran. You are not interested what Quran truly says though.
All written Holy works are wrong and the fiction of those who wrote them.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Can you tell me, which new book did Jesus bring? Maybe he was the inspiration for Paul and others to write letters to the followers, and for others to write about the life and teachings of Jesus.
Then what new laws did Jesus bring?
And then this new "faith"? So, would you believe in a new religion that taught about Satan and hell and that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven? And then by the time this new "faith" got established Jesus was worshipped as being a part of a trinitarian God. When was anything true, from a Baha'i or a Jewish point of view, about this new "faith"?
I really don't see how Baha'is can use much of anything from Christianity.
The thing is Isa (a) was just continuing the mission of those before him, Yahya (a), Zakariya (a), but it was a final effort before the people have to prepare to not have a chosen leader among them. This is another failed concept of Bahaism, they make Isa (a) the day of judgment of Musa (a), but that would be akin to making Imam Hassan Al-Askari (A) the day of judgment of Mohammad (s), which doesn't make sense. Isa (a) was unable to steer the nation to the correct path just as Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a) could not. They both salvaged what they can of followers to prepare for Mohammad (S) or Imam Mahdi (a) respectively.
Elyas (a) of course took on the station of Imammate between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s), and I've discussed proofs of this in the Quran but he was hidden among the people. There's allusions to this in the Gospels as well.
Isa (A) did change some laws, but it was more to make the rituals that pertained to the temple and laws that were meant for the presence of an Imam to be abolished till Mohammad (S) comes with a Shariah.
The thing is the "new religion" that they make into "day of judgment of Musa (A)" was because Christians focused on Isa (a) and didn't take the collective of the Ahlulbayt he belonged to and didn't honor them all equally, but exalted Isa (a) above all others. The obsession of focusing on Isa (a) over others eventually lead to them worshiping him.
So this new religion or day is not a day of God, it was a day of the Devil. The Devil manifestation is what really happened when he got people to worship a human.
Musa (a) is the founding Messenger, Isa (a) the final one of that covenant started by Musa (a). This day of judgment of this and that, all doesn't make sense from Bahai viewpoint.
The whole thing is a built on a house of cards, on ambiguities, and sophistry. This is why @InvestigateTruth always talks about God deceiving and that there are mutashibahat. There is nothing clear in proving Bahai Faith. Their holy text also don't seem all too impressive speech.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Can you tell me, when Jesus was sent, a Physical punishment came or not?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You would need to see if all these statements that you making in this post, are what the Quran says.
You are making a comparison between Jesus and the 11th Imam. Whereas, the 11th Imam came after the 10th Imam and so forth, continuesly from Muhammad. But when Jesus came, there was a disconnect. There was not Prophet for a while for the Jews, before Jesus and John come.
I mean, you are saying there are 12 Captains after Moses, and the last one of them was Jesus. Now, can you put their names, and approximate year they lived?
Isa (a) succeeded Yahya (a). Where is your proof from Islamic sources that were not a Prophet for a while. Zakariya (a) was before Yahya (a) and before Zakariya (a) was Imran (a).
You are now mixing Jewish and Christian sources with Islamic sources.
No, just as it didn't when Imam Mahdi (a) disappeared and Hasan Al-Askari (a) died. There always a destruction type Messenger though per Quran. The Mahdi (a) is of this type per Quran. That means if rejected and believers oppressed, the punishment will come. But with the Mahdi (a), the warnings are even more threatening in that all cities will be under obligation regarding him.
I don't know how long they lived each. Suleiman (a) is supposed to have lived extra long life. Elyas (a) still alive and so is Isa (a).
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
مَّنِ ٱهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِى لِنَفْسِهِۦ ۖ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌۭ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًۭا ١٥ وَإِذَآ أَرَدْنَآ أَن نُّهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُوا۟ فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا ٱلْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَـٰهَا تَدْمِيرًۭا ١٦
وَإِذَآ أَرَدْنَآ أَن نُّهْلِكَ قَرْيَةً أَمَرْنَا مُتْرَفِيهَا فَفَسَقُوا۟ فِيهَا فَحَقَّ عَلَيْهَا ٱلْقَوْلُ فَدَمَّرْنَـٰهَا تَدْمِيرًۭا
Whoever chooses to be guided, it is only for their own good. And whoever chooses to stray, it is only to their own loss. No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another. And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺.
Whenever We intend to destroy a society, We command its elite ˹to obey Allah˺ but they act rebelliously in it. So the decree ˹of punishment˺ is justified, and We destroy it utterly.
17:15-16
It says whenever!. So, it is not like some Messengers are destruction type and some are not. Jesus was a Messenger. He came to them with a Revelation from Allah, called Injil. He had commands from Allah. But the Jews did not obey. So, according to this verse, Allah must have punished them. Again, how were the Jews punished for rejecting the Messenger of Allah, Jesus, the Messiah?
"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me."
˹They were condemned˺ for breaking their covenant, rejecting Allah’s signs, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, “Our hearts are unreceptive!”1—it is Allah Who has sealed their hearts for their disbelief, so they do not believe except for a few—
and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this crucifixion are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. [Surah An-Nisa; 4:157]
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ الْبَرَاثِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو عَلِيٍّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي يَعْقُوبُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ إِلَّا مَا رُوِيَتْ لَكَ وَ لَكِنْ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ رَجُلٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا قَالَ:، قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا (ع) جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَوْمٌ قَدْ وَقَفُوا عَلَى أَبِيكَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَمُتْ، قَالَ، قَالَ: كَذَبُوا وَ هُمْ كُفَّارٌ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ (ص)، وَ لَوْ كَانَ اللَّهُ يَمُدُّ فِي أَجَلِ أَحَدٍ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ لِحَاجَةِ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْهِ لَمَدَّ اللَّهُ فِي أَجَلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ (ص).
إختيار معرفة الرجال المعروف بـ رجال الكشي - الشيخ الطوسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت
From Imam Reza:
...if God wanted to extend Lifespan of anyome among the human beings for the needs of humanity, He would have extended lifetime of Muhammad, the Messenger of God!
"Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful" 3:144
These are clear verses and Hadithes (محكمات)
But there are verses called Mutishabihat.
Noah lived 950 years!
Upto you to follow clear Hadithes and Verses, or follow the Mutishabihat!
Allah wants us to use the upstair
It's whenever he intends to destroy a city. Did not say whenever he sends a Messenger.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
What is the reason that God would want to destroy a Society?
It is a punishment for what?