"Upon this rock", which rock?

[Colt]

"Kephas" can mean either "stone" or "rock" as Aramaic doesn't differentiate between the two. Jesus, otoh, is more viewed as the "cornerstone", which also is used in the Gospel.

Also, not only is it likely to be Jesus' play on words, but also Peter has a special designation within the Gospel.

And finally, this isn't just a Catholic thingy.

Is it possible that those who recalled this peculiar exchange in this way had an interest in it sounding like he was saying that Peter would be the first Pope? Because central to the entire discussion was the identity of Jesus, a public confession realized in faith. Starts out about Jesus and ends up about Peter?

 

[metis]

Is it possible that those who recalled this peculiar exchange in this way had an interest in it sounding like he was saying that Peter would be the first Pope? Because central to the entire discussion was the identity of Jesus, a public confession realized in faith. Starts out about Jesus and ends up about Peter?

The issue of the leadership within the early and later Church does not rely on the issue of the pope as he is one bishop amongst many as appointees.

 

[KW]

This is what Youngs literal translation says "18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;"

Yes, because he used the same word.

What means rock in Aramaic?

 

[Fool]

Its an age old debate but in my opinion Peter wasn't the "rock". Since the NT books were written well into Pauls heavy influence on recollections and new believers, the exchange often quoted between Jesus and the apostles at Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16:13-20 may not have been accurately recalled anyway. That is to say that the writing (and subsequent editing) of the Gospels was done with a Pauline bias.

The "Rock" in context was the fact that the Father revealed to the apostles the identity of the Son. Faith in the Father was the central theme of the original Gospel. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


The rock wasn't fallible Peter, it was the FAITH in the Father that Jesus had been preaching for 3+ years before being killed due to the original, pre-cross Gospel!


It was really Peter on the day of Pentecost who began to preach about the latest and most spectacular of all the miracles associated with Jesus, returning from death on his own volition as he said he could and would; the resurrection of Jesus. It was Peter who began the new Gospel about Jesus which replaced the original Gospel of Jesus, the "good news" about the Father, that we are ALL sons and daughters of the living God. That God is personal to each one of us, not a national God and certainly not for an especially chosen few. "Christ and him crucified" replaced Jesus Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.


Paul was a student of Peter. Paul never having known Jesus expanded upon the ideas of Peter and further developed the new Gospel into a new religion about Jesus. Paul's atonement doctrine was appealing to the Pagan religions considering that they already had similar beliefs. Plus the atonement doctrine had the effect of ending Temple sacrifices for the newly emerging Christian church.


So Paul's Gospel, Christianity is really a version of Peters Gospel that was a version of Jesus' Gospel, The Kingdom of Heaven.



.

every man is considered a temple, a church per the nt. so the understanding is not in some place built by hands but constructed of love. externalizing god has never worked. jesus wasn't talking about something material but something spiritual.

 

[KW]

every man is considered a temple, a church per the nt. so the understanding is not in some place built by hands but constructed of love. externalizing god has never worked. jesus wasn't talking about something material but something spiritual.

How do you consult and listen to the church if every man is the church.

Jesus told us to listen to the church. He only started one church.

 

[Colt]

Yes, because he used the same word.

What means rock in Aramaic?​

`Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


​

Deuteronomy 32:15
And Jeshurun waxeth fat, and doth kick: Thou hast been fat -- thou hast been thick, Thou hast been covered. And he leaveth God who made him, And dishonoureth the Rock of his salvation.


Deuteronomy 32:18
The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee.


2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God save Jehovah? And who a Rock save our God?


2 Samuel 22:47
Jehovah liveth, and blessed [is] my Rock, And exalted is my God -- The Rock of my salvation.


Psalm 42:9
I say to God my rock, `Why hast Thou forgotten me? Why go I mourning in the oppression of an enemy?

Psalm 62:2
Only -- He [is] my rock, and my salvation, My tower, I am not much moved.


Psalm 78:35
And they remember that God [is] their rock, And God Most High their redeemer.


Psalm 89:26
He proclaimeth me: `Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


Psalm 92:15
To declare that upright [is] Jehovah my rock, And there is no perverseness in Him!


Isaiah 26:4
Trust ye in Jehovah for ever, For in Jah Jehovah [is] a rock of ages,


Matthew 7:24
`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The term "rock" relative to the Old Testament scriptures was God the Father as the "rock" not humans. Jesus is saying here that the rock or God the Father revealed his identity to the apostles and he would build his kingdom on this foundation rock. After Jesus left the "rock" or God the Father is what bears witness to the identity of his Son in the hearts of spirit born believers.

 

[KW]

`Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


​

Deuteronomy 32:15
And Jeshurun waxeth fat, and doth kick: Thou hast been fat -- thou hast been thick, Thou hast been covered. And he leaveth God who made him, And dishonoureth the Rock of his salvation.


Deuteronomy 32:18
The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee.


2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God save Jehovah? And who a Rock save our God?


2 Samuel 22:47
Jehovah liveth, and blessed [is] my Rock, And exalted is my God -- The Rock of my salvation.


Psalm 42:9
I say to God my rock, `Why hast Thou forgotten me? Why go I mourning in the oppression of an enemy?

Psalm 62:2
Only -- He [is] my rock, and my salvation, My tower, I am not much moved.


Psalm 78:35
And they remember that God [is] their rock, And God Most High their redeemer.


Psalm 89:26
He proclaimeth me: `Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


Psalm 92:15
To declare that upright [is] Jehovah my rock, And there is no perverseness in Him!


Isaiah 26:4
Trust ye in Jehovah for ever, For in Jah Jehovah [is] a rock of ages,


Matthew 7:24
`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The term "rock" relative to the Old Testament scriptures was God the Father as the "rock" not humans. Jesus is saying here that the rock or God the Father revealed his identity and he would build his kingdom on this foundation. After Jesus left the "rock" or God the Father is what bears witness to the identity of his Son in the hearts of spirit born believers.

So what does that mean? It seems to me that Jesus is giving Simon unique authority. Simon alone was given the keys to the Kingdom, after all.

 

[74x12]

Its an age old debate but in my opinion Peter wasn't the "rock". Since the NT books were written well into Pauls heavy influence on recollections and new believers, the exchange often quoted between Jesus and the apostles at Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16:13-20 may not have been accurately recalled anyway. That is to say that the writing (and subsequent editing) of the Gospels was done with a Pauline bias.

The "Rock" in context was the fact that the Father revealed to the apostles the identity of the Son. Faith in the Father was the central theme of the original Gospel. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


The rock wasn't fallible Peter, it was the FAITH in the Father that Jesus had been preaching for 3+ years before being killed due to the original, pre-cross Gospel!


It was really Peter on the day of Pentecost who began to preach about the latest and most spectacular of all the miracles associated with Jesus, returning from death on his own volition as he said he could and would; the resurrection of Jesus. It was Peter who began the new Gospel about Jesus which replaced the original Gospel of Jesus, the "good news" about the Father, that we are ALL sons and daughters of the living God. That God is personal to each one of us, not a national God and certainly not for an especially chosen few. "Christ and him crucified" replaced Jesus Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.


Paul was a student of Peter. Paul never having known Jesus expanded upon the ideas of Peter and further developed the new Gospel into a new religion about Jesus. Paul's atonement doctrine was appealing to the Pagan religions considering that they already had similar beliefs. Plus the atonement doctrine had the effect of ending Temple sacrifices for the newly emerging Christian church.


So Paul's Gospel, Christianity is really a version of Peters Gospel that was a version of Jesus' Gospel, The Kingdom of Heaven.



.

Really both are correct. And I think Jesus making the point about his name "thou art Peter" which means stone.

The Rock is ultimately Christ; but Peter himself is also one of the stones that make up the foundation. We know Peter had that revelation of everyone in Christ being living stones built up to a spiritual house for God.

He says that Jesus came to them a living stone and that they are all lively stones built up by Jesus Christ to be a house for God. (1 Peter 2:4-5)

Jesus is the cornerstone and the "sure foundation". (Isaiah 28:16) So everything is founded on Jesus Christ. But according to Revelation 21:14 we see the city actually has 12 foundations and each one bears the name of one of the apostles. So it's not incorrect to say Peter is one of these foundations for the church.

Important to note here that the New Jerusalem is the church.

 

[Fool]

How do you consult and listen to the church if every man is the church.

Jesus told us to listen to the church. He only started one church.

first clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean too. love is the law. god searches hearts and minds, it doesn't look at outward appearances. again you're trying to operate from a materialist view point, on a spiritual/mental matter.

ezekiel and jesus both referred to white washed sepuclres/walls. let the dead bury the dead

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'm not sure if you realize it, but "Peter" means "rock."

This passage is all about wordplay. It becomes nonsense if Peter isn't "the rock."

I think "Peter" means more of a little stone. Peter is a little stone in the body of the church. Jesus is called the rock many times in the Bible. God would not build his church on a human little stone but on the devine rock od Jesus.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Rock and roll

 

[KW]

first clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean too. love is the law. god searches hearts and minds, it doesn't look at outward appearances. again you're trying to operate from a materialist view point, on a spiritual/mental matter.

ezekiel and jesus both referred to white washed sepuclres/walls. let the dead bury the dead

That's a very creative evasion. There will always be sinners in the Church, so that point is not meaningful.

You didn't answer the question though:

How do you consult and listen to the church if every man is the church.

 

[KW]

I think "Peter" means more of a little stone. Peter is a little stone in the body of the church. Jesus is called the rock many times in the Bible. God would not build his church on a human little stone but on the devine rock od Jesus.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Here's what he said:

Matt 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

John 20
As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Rock, and on this Rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

 

[Fool]

That's a very creative evasion. There will always be sinners in the Church, so that point is not meaningful.

You didn't answer the question though:

How do you consult and listen to the church if every man is the church.

your inner conscience. jesus said the kingdom comes from within. it isn't something material apart/outside of self.

 

[Colt]

So what does that mean? It seems to me that Jesus is giving Simon unique authority. Simon alone was given the keys to the Kingdom, after all.

It means God the Father is the rock upon which the Gospel of Jesus is built. But no question that Jesus "fostered" the church established in his name. There is no question for me that Peter and others gave their lives for the cause, but Peter is not now present with us in spirit as the Father is who continues to reward the faith of new believers with the "conviction" of the truth of the identity of Jesus.

 

[metis]

I think "Peter" means more of a little stone. Peter is a little stone in the body of the church. Jesus is called the rock many times in the Bible. God would not build his church on a human little stone but on the devine rock od Jesus.

As I stated in a previous post, "Kephas" can be translated as "stone" or "rock" as Aramaic doesn't differentiate between the two. And why would Jesus rename him "Kephas" if it really didn't mean anything?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Here's what he said:

Matt 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

John 20
As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Rock, and on this Rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

I prefer the translation of Mathew 16:18 that says, you are a little stone but on this rock I will build my church.Jesus is the rock. God's church is not built on any human but on God's son Jesus.

 

[KW]

your inner conscience. jesus said the kingdom comes from within. it isn't something material apart/outside of self.

Jesus said to listen to the Church.

He wanted to avoid the mess with have in protestantism with hundreds of different denominations teaching contradictory messages. Gay priests, abortion, sex outside of marriage, this is all taught as moral in some protestant churches led by those who decide what's right with their inner conscience.

That's gnosticism, not Christianity. We follow those sent by Christ and granted his authority to teach.

 

[KW]

I prefer the translation of Mathew 16:18 that says, you are a little stone but on this rock I will build my church.Jesus is the rock. God's church is not built on any human but on God's son Jesus.

You don't accept the words of Christ? Why are you a Christian?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

[metis]

I prefer the translation of Mathew 16:18 that says, you are a little stone but on this rock I will build my church.Jesus is the rock. God's church is not built on any human but on God's son Jesus.

This is how the RSV renders it as it is the translation used by most theologians because it tries to get to the closest interpretations: Matthew16[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.