US school experience vs the world?

[SomeRandom]

So I’ve expressed my curiosity on US schooling experience before. Mostly in the context of “sex ed”
But I’m curious about more general experiences and how they differ across the board and what differences there are when held up against experiences across the pond.
Indeed someone mentioned to me recently that when they spoke to their American cousin (I think from Florida?) they were shocked to learn that they (the person I had spoken to) had learnt of various concepts in, say, math quite a few years before their American cousin had.
(I can’t speak to that one way or the other, just seemed interesting to me)

The US schooling system is actually somewhat notorious for having no real central authority (meaning that there is a wide variance in the application of curriculum between the states.
I’m sure the federal government oversees the generalities? Right?)
But regardless other systems like the UK model for instance (which my country largely models itself off of) is much more tightly regulated by the overall government. Across all year levels.

Just for an example here is an article detailing the differences between the two, from a rather general point of view

8 Differences Between Aussie & American Schools - CollegeBasics

Australia and the United States have many things in common, with a few twists. Read on as College Basics shares some differences between the two.

www.collegebasics.com

Tell me what you think and tell me your experiences. Did you have a good math teacher? An awful chemistry teacher?
Was your school full of cliques?
Did someone from a differing state have a better education than you?
Did you think you could have done without some aspects of your school culture?

 

[Stevicus]

So I’ve expressed my curiosity on US schooling experience before. Mostly in the context of “sex ed”
But I’m curious about more general experiences and how they differ across the board and what differences there are when held up against experiences across the pond.
Indeed someone mentioned to me recently that when they spoke to their American cousin (I think from Florida?) they were shocked to learn that they (the person I had spoken to) had learnt of various concepts in, say, math quite a few years before their American cousin had.
(I can’t speak to that one way or the other, just seemed interesting to me)

The US schooling system is actually somewhat notorious for having no real central authority (meaning that there is a wide variance in the application of curriculum between the states.
I’m sure the federal government oversees the generalities? Right?)
But regardless other systems like the UK model for instance (which my country largely models itself off of) is much more tightly regulated by the overall government. Across all year levels.

Just for an example here is an article detailing the differences between the two, from a rather general point of view

8 Differences Between Aussie & American Schools - CollegeBasics

Australia and the United States have many things in common, with a few twists. Read on as College Basics shares some differences between the two.

www.collegebasics.com

Tell me what you think and tell me your experiences. Did you have a good math teacher? An awful chemistry teacher?
Was your school full of cliques?
Did someone from a differing state have a better education than you?
Did you think you could have done without some aspects of your school culture?

I went to different schools in different states. My kindergarten and first grade years were in upstate NY. My 2nd and 3rd grade years were in southern California. My fourth through ninth grade years were back in upstate NY, and my last three years of high school were here in southern Arizona.

Where I lived in upstate NY, it was a bedroom community near various high tech industries, so naturally the parents demanded and got good quality schools - because they were willing to pay a little extra in tax. In Arizona, it was different, since it was more conservative and fewer people had any real stake in the quality of education. However, there were often many fights in my schools in NY, while there were practically zero fights in my school in Arizona.

I've said this before, but the movie Fast Times at Ridgemont High comes closest to portraying what high school life was like back in the day, even down to the detail of students sniffing the newly-printed mimeograph "dittos" we would often get. (Youngsters today never really get that part.)

I think my biggest frustration was that it was too long. K-12 is thirteen years of education which probably could have been condensed in half that time. I think that's what may contribute to a lot of teenage angst in modern times, since we get to age where we feel ready to move forward and on with our lives, yet we're still virtual prisoners with no rights until we turn 18.

 

[metis]

The US schooling system is actually somewhat notorious for having no real central authority (meaning that there is a wide variance in the application of curriculum between the states.
I’m sure the federal government oversees the generalities? Right?)

Education is up to the states as there's a distrust of having the federal government possibly being tempted to teach their partisan politics.

 

[SomeRandom]

Education is up to the states as there's a distrust of having the federal government possibly being tempted to teach their partisan politics.

What differences are there, between the states I mean?

 

[Quintessence]

What differences are there, between the states I mean?

Tens and thousands of pages of legislation that'd take a scholar and several books to dissect and present.

In simple terms, what Metis said is correct - education in the United States is decentralized. Very, very, very decentralized. The Department of Education is not permitted any say in curricula and mostly just manages grants and scholarships. It's the state government that legislates educational standards, but that's just the start of how complicated it gets in reality. Because within each state, there are individual school districts run by school boards (members appointed, elected, and/or ex-officio) who then also have a significant impact on how education is managed within the district. Oh, and there's something like 13,000 of these school districts in the country. That's after a period of significant consolidation by the way. And we can't forget that individual classroom teachers have a fair amount of professional liberties too.

While this decentralization and local control does allow each school district to (in theory) respond quickly to the needs of its citizens, in practice this patchwork system creates educational inequality and inconsistency within the country. This is true whether we're talking about teaching sex ed or mathematics.

 

[SomeRandom]

Tens and thousands of pages of legislation that'd take a scholar and several books to dissect and present.

Lol fair enough

In simple terms, what Metis said is correct - education in the United States is decentralized. Very, very, very decentralized. The Department of Education is not permitted any say in curricula and mostly just manages grants and scholarships.

Wait. Your department of education just manages the grants and scholarships? So they just act as financiers? So there’s no real oversight in the curriculum whatsoever?
I mean I guess I kind of knew that to an extent (or at least guessed based on what info I did have) but wow!
. That really is a decentralised system!!

It's the state government that legislates educational standards, but that's just the start of how complicated it gets in reality. Because within each state, there are individual school districts run by school boards (members appointed, elected, and/or ex-officio) who then also have a significant impact on how education is managed within the district. Oh, and there's something like 13,000 of these school districts in the country. That's after a period of significant consolidation by the way.

And we can't forget that individual classroom teachers have a fair amount of professional liberties too.

Which brings me to my next question.
So like who actually oversees the validity of teaching practices in America? And indeed who ensures that the ethics are followed?
I assume this is done by a branch of the state government.
But is there like a general standard by which a public school teacher has to pass muster? Is it stricter in some places, if there is one??

Because I come from a family of teachers and based on various conversations I’ve had with them over the years, I can only gather that our federal and local government/s are quite strict, regardless of year level. Like a teacher can use their own preferred “style of teaching” but that’s as much leeway as they’re given, really.
They aren’t allowed to push political agendas, they aren’t allowed to use outdated or inaccurate information (unless they’re using it as an illustration or metaphor for teaching purposes, I suppose) and they must adhere to the ever updating curriculum. Just for example.
Though they have their own complaints about our system. I’m not well versed enough to understand that though lol

While this decentralization and local control does allow each school district to (in theory) respond quickly to the needs of its citizens, in practice this patchwork system creates educational inequality and inconsistency within the country. This is true whether we're talking about teaching sex ed or mathematics.

I think this is what I was most curious about. Because over the years I have had various discussions with folks from (seemingly) all over the country and it was interesting for comparison.
Like sometimes math concepts that I was taught in late primary school (for you guys would be I guess middle -to Jr High) some folks apparently didn’t learn about it until late high school and sometimes even early college. Which genuinely shocked me, since I went to a dilapidated crap public school.
(Well to me it seemed dilapidated, but given how routine all our public cleaning measures are. And apparently ours are actually very strict in comparison to the US, maybe it wouldn’t seem like it to an American. Idk.)
Others seemingly learnt about said math concepts at roughly the age I did. Though weirdly this seemingly became more rare as we got into high school level educational material. Just an observation.

But I guess with what you’re describing about how education is run overall, that’s to be expected. Right?

 

[Stevicus]

Which brings me to my next question.
So like who actually oversees the validity of teaching practices in America? And indeed who ensures that the ethics are followed?
I assume this is done by a branch of the state government.
But is there like a general standard by which a public school teacher has to pass muster? Is it stricter in some places, if there is one??

Most public schools have a principal to oversee the operations of the school and to supervise the teachers, and typically, districts have a superintendent who is hired by the school board to run the day-to-day operations. Standards are often set at the state level. Teaching certificates are also issued at the state level.

Of course, in recent years, school board meetings have been quite raucous - and sometimes even violent. So, I guess one might say that angry parents with a political ax to grind might also share in some of the oversight of the teaching practices - at least indirectly.

 

[SomeRandom]

Most public schools have a principal to oversee the operations of the school and to supervise the teachers, and typically, districts have a superintendent who is hired by the school board to run the day-to-day operations. Standards are often set at the state level. Teaching certificates are also issued at the state level.

Interesting
I think it works the same way here. But obviously with far more oversight from the federal and state governments

So, out of curiosity.
Do different states have different legal standards for teaching?
It just seems like this kind of approach can leave itself open to having varying degrees of actual standards upheld, in practice. Which can be rather harmful in the long run, imo
But I don’t want to presume anything, since I’m not American

Of course, in recent years, school board meetings have been quite raucous - and sometimes even violent. So, I guess one might say that angry parents with a political ax to grind might also share in some of the oversight of the teaching practices - at least indirectly.

Given the education standards between the average parent and the average teacher here (even at lower levels) that honestly scares me a little, ngl
No offence

 

[Stevicus]

Interesting
I think it works the same way here. But obviously with far more oversight from the federal and state governments

So, out of curiosity.
Do different states have different legal standards for teaching?
It just seems like this kind of approach can leave itself open to having varying degrees of actual standards upheld, in practice. Which can be rather harmful in the long run, imo
But I don’t want to presume anything, since I’m not American

I think most states would have similar core curricula, such as the "Three R's," since most agree on that. They all obviously would have English classes, although if the teacher wants to use various types of textbooks or novels, then that may get a bit dicey depending on which district. School libraries may also be in the same boat, as that's been a noticeable issue these days. Social studies would entail history and political science classes, and that has also become a source of great controversy of late. So there might also be some regional differences there. And then with science, there are still some districts who have a problem with teaching evolution.

Given the education standards between the average parent and the average teacher here (even at lower levels) that honestly scares me a little, ngl
No offence

My impression when I look at other countries and cultures is that there's far more respect for education and the job of teaching than there is in the U.S. In U.S. popular culture, too, teachers are basically the brunt of jokes, smart kids are nerds to be picked on, and it's considered "cool" to be stupid, or the class clown.

 

[Sand Dancer]

One states approves textbooks for the US, if I have my info right. Which one? Texas. We're screwed...

 

[SomeRandom]

I think most states would have similar core curricula, such as the "Three R's," since most agree on that. They all obviously would have English classes, although if the teacher wants to use various types of textbooks or novels, then that may get a bit dicey depending on which district. School libraries may also be in the same boat, as that's been a noticeable issue these days. Social studies would entail history and political science classes, and that has also become a source of great controversy of late. So there might also be some regional differences there. And then with science, there are still some districts who have a problem with teaching evolution.

Informative frubal
Although social studies and evolution still being met with controversy and/or hesitancy is a little troubling to hear about, ngl

IMy impression when I look at other countries and cultures is that there's far more respect for education and the job of teaching than there is in the U.S. In U.S. popular culture, too, teachers are basically the brunt of jokes, smart kids are nerds to be picked on, and it's considered "cool" to be stupid, or the class clown.

I remember as kids we often mimicked this US pop culture of picking on nerds and had our own class clown. Though with that said, we largely grew out of it during mid to late high school. And indeed the idea seemed to slowly shift to “how are you gonna get a good job if you fool around in school.”

To add another spanner into the mix, my cousin pointed out to me that our generation (millenial) and those younger than us are far more likely than our parents’ generation to switch careers late in the game if we get fed up with our current job. Accessing TAFE without hesitation (I think the US equivalent to that would be community college??)
Either way, I guess your impression would be correct. Our culture here, despite being largely kind of laid back and drunk, does put a large amount of respect on education. What it can do for us, how we can access it and the trouble teachers go through in order to help the community.
Well, generally speaking I suppose. We have our own anti education folks to deal with, sad to say

 

[Orbit]

Here's my school experience in the USA:

In 1971 at 7 years of age I attended a segregation academy in rural North Carolina for 1st grade. The education, as far as I can judge, was just as average as that I got when I attended public school later. For those who don't know, a segregation academy is a private school that exists solely so that white kids don't have attend public school with black kids, mostly in the South.

From 1972-1978 I attended public school in a middle class California suburb. The schools were fine, no complaints here. We had a fact-based sex ed class in 7th grade. It was normal and I don't remember anyone's parents objecting, though they did have to sign a permission slip for one to attend. I read plenty of books that are now banned, or "challenged" to no ill effect.

In 1979 it was back to rural North Carolina for 9th grade, this time at a 90% black public school. All the white kids somehow ended up in the same classes with each other, making it an all-white class. The physical buildings were in awful shape, and some of the classrooms were in rickety, leaking trailers. The education part was average, on par with California.

From 1980-1982 it was back to suburban southern California for grades 10-12. School was fine, about average, I'll say.

Later on, when I was 23, I entered community college in Santa Monica, CA and received an excellent education, transferring from there to UCLA. I must not have been too ill-prepared by my public schooling because I did well in college.

Since I attended public school class sizes have risen, quality has gone down because teachers are strangled with standardized testing, and school libraries have to contend with rabid right wingers who want to ban books and the teaching of accurate history. It's my understanding that Civics/Government, which was required when I was in high school, is no longer a required course, nor is driver's ed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My public schooling, K-5 and then 9-12, was actually at a pretty good school that was one of the top performing in the state. Still had some common issues like the US History teacher twisting the Civil War and not explaining why black people switched from Rep to Dem (making it sound like they were ungrateful), and an especially bad Adanved Placement Biology teacher who skipped over evolution (these are college sulervised courses with external testing for college credits so for an AP class that is likely a very rare exception).
It was also very cliquey, overall very Conservative, had lots of farmers kids and military kids, and people so terrible (including faculty; I got in trouble for standing up for myself) that my mom pulled me out because she was scared I was going to shoot my school up (this happened before Columbine). And when I had to go back they still sucked ****. It took half an episode of 13 Reasons Why to remember why I hated those ****wads so much.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One states approves textbooks for the US, if I have my info right. Which one? Texas. We're screwed...

That's not how it works. Larger states can be influenced by larger states like Texas or California, but Indiana has it's own textbooks that are catered specifically to state curriculum guidelines.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's not how it works. Larger states can be influenced by larger states like Texas or California, but Indiana has it's own textbooks that are catered specifically to state curriculum guidelines.

I guess that’s what I’m most curious about. And how that can affect experiences

Like I can understand having specific course guidelines based on local things.
For example I think our geology and geography programs slightly differ state to state here, simply due the variances in local wildlife and actual minerals found in the ground. Depending on where you live.
But apart from that and maybe local economics/politics, I guess I’m having trouble understanding why would a state have so much control over something that everyone needs to go through. I mean I understand why, in terms of culture (I think.) States rights and all that.
But like what accountability are these states holding themselves to, is what I’m curious about

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But like what accountability are these states holding themselves to, is what I’m curious about

Universities saying we won't take yoir graduates or will require them to take remedial courses.

 

[Quintessence]

Do different states have different legal standards for teaching?

Yes, but to add to what has already been said, there can be a lot of power held by universities with teacher education programs too. This isn't something I learned until working at the university with the secondary education coordinator. The state sets baseline standards, but departments at the university actually set the curriculum and the standards to graduate. The place I work for sets a higher bar than the other universities in the state for secondary education in STEM. The idea is, if you hire a science or mathematics teacher from our university you can be sure they really know their stuff and the departments cut no corners in their degree requirements. It is a good idea in principle, but in practice, it... well... let's just say it is absolutely contributing to the statewide and national teacher shortage.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, but to add to what has already been said, there can be a lot of power held by universities with teacher education programs too. This isn't something I learned until working at the university with the secondary education coordinator. The state sets baseline standards, but departments at the university actually set the curriculum and the standards to graduate. The place I work for sets a higher bar than the other universities in the state for secondary education in STEM. The idea is, if you hire a science or mathematics teacher from our university you can be sure they really know their stuff and the departments cut no corners in their degree requirements. It is a good idea in principle, but in practice, it... well... let's just say it is absolutely contributing to the statewide and national teacher shortage.

Hmm interesting.

Informative frubal.

Do you think this can be improved?

 

[Quintessence]

Hmm interesting.

Informative frubal.

Do you think this can be improved?

Yes - for better or worse it is a slow process.

I'm not particularly optimistic about this being handled at the state level - which would be the best solution - so we do what we can at the institutional level. Some improvements have already been made, and in a couple years I anticipate some more rolling out. My main concern now is that the state has been making some moves that indicate they are more willing to water down standards than to bother financially supporting students going into secondary education (because of course they are - team red controls the legislature). These days, the cost factor weighs very heavily on student's minds. If the state paid the last two years of a student's secondary education program? The fact that it's really more of a 5-year program realistically wouldn't even be a problem anymore.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That's not how it works. Larger states can be influenced by larger states like Texas or California, but Indiana has it's own textbooks that are catered specifically to state curriculum guidelines.

Well then, I did not have my info right. Thanks!