Utah counts down to firing squad execution

[Sententia]

"It [capital punishment] is immoral in principle, and unfair and discriminatory in practice [...] No one deserves to die. When the government metes out vengeance disguised as justice, it becomes complicit with killers in devaluing human life and human dignity.

In civilized society, we reject the principle of literally doing to criminals what they do to their victims: The penalty for rape cannot be rape, or for arson, the burning down of the arsonist's house. We should not, therefore, punish the murderer with death... Capital punishment is a barbaric remnant of uncivilized society."

There are a few reasons I abhore the death penalty. I think the argument against the death penalty has been made many times but to mention a few points. It does nothing to improve social welfare and in fact most likely harms social welfare.

The justice system used to dole out death sentences favors the rich over the poor.

It is vengeance disguised as justice.

The fact that innocent people have been executed should be enough for most people to understand we are not perfect in our ability judge and should not be taking our best guesses on death sentences. Despite all of our checks and balances... innocent people are still legally executed.

At some point violence has to stop. More killing is not going to make anything better. It won't bring anyone back from the dead and won't right any wrongs. Its just killing for the sake of killing. It doesn't appear to be a credible deterrent either.

"[T]here is no credible evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than long terms of imprisonment. States that have death penalty laws do not have lower crime rates or murder rates than states without such laws. And states that have abolished capital punishment show no significant changes in either crime or murder rates.
The death penalty has no deterrent effect. Claims that each execution deters a certain number of murders have been thoroughly discredited by social science research. People commit murders largely in the heat of passion, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or because they are mentally ill, giving little or no thought to the possible consequences of their acts. The few murderers who plan their crimes beforehand -- for example, professional executioners -- intend and expect to avoid punishment altogether by not getting caught. Some self-destructive individuals may even hope they will be caught and executed.

As far as no one being right or wrong... I believe supporting the death penalty is wrong. I realize most of the united states still supports it and that has to change in my opinion. There are many states that have done away with it and many parts of the world where it is abolished.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Yeah moral relativism is pretty cheap when it results in innocent people being murdered by the justice system.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

As far as no one being right or wrong... I believe supporting the death penalty is wrong. I realize most of the united states still supports it and that has to change in my opinion. There are many states that have done away with it and many parts of the world where it is abolished.

That is your opinion and I respect that.
I just think it's messed up that people are saying certain opinions are wrong when they are OPINIONS. Not facts so that makes them neither right or wrong.
Does that make since? It sounds like it does in my head.

 

[KatNotKathy]

You want facts? If you support the death penalty for any crime, you're supporting actions that result in innocent people being killed by the justice system. That is a fact, not an opinion. There is no sugar-coating it.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

I do believe that I never stated that I condoned the killing of innocents. There are people on the death penalty who have actually commited the crime they're there for. Just because you don't believe in the death penalty doesn't mean you're right. In your eyes you are but in the eyes of some you are not. Just how I'm not right by believing in it. I feel I'm right. All that should matter to you is how you feel. Just like how I feel is all that matters to me.

I can sugar-coat it but I prefer my sugar plain not fried.......

 

[KatNotKathy]

Even if you're opposed to the killing of innocents, supporting the death penalty has the same end result. Don't pull this moral relativism ******** when innocent people are being killed. You can't just say "we should only kill the guilty people" because that's just not how it works. People make mistakes. We make them all the time. When combined with the death penalty this inevitably results in innocents being executed. There's no two ways about it: If you support the death penalty, you have to accept that you're supporting actions that result in the execution of innocent people. None of this just world crap.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I mean if you want to say it's just a matter of differing opinions, that's fine, but it is an undeniable fact that the death penalty results in innocent people dying, and you should accept that.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

Even if you're opposed to the killing of innocents, supporting the death penalty has the same end result. Don't pull this moral relativism ******** when innocent people are being killed. You can't just say "we should only kill the guilty people" because that's just not how it works. People make mistakes. We make them all the time. When combined with the death penalty this inevitably results in innocents being executed. There's no two ways about it: If you support the death penalty, you have to accept that you're supporting actions that result in the execution of innocent people. None of this just world crap.

Innocent people die everyday anyway.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Innocent people die everyday anyway.

So we shouldn't care that we're actively killing even more of them? That's awfully defeatist.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I mean if you want to say it's just a matter of differing opinions, that's fine, but it is an undeniable fact that the death penalty results in innocent people dying, and you should accept that.

You are more likely to die driving than the government putting an innocent person to death. Do you support the abolition of motor vehicles?

According to a study done by the FDA, linked to by an article in the LA Times, you're more likely to die undergoing plastic surgery than by driving. Do you have the same passion regarding the abolition of plastic surgery?

Life isn't perfect. People aren't perfect. Systems aren't perfect. But they can be pretty damn careful.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

I don't have a hand in killing anyone

 

[Poisonshady313]

So we shouldn't care that we're actively killing even more of them? That's awfully defeatist.

Consider for a moment the argument that life in prison is a harsher punishment than death, because with death, it's all over and the criminal isn't suffering anymore.

You'd rather innocent people go through that?

If they die in prison serving a life sentence for a crime they didn't commit, is that really any better than having been put to death? Would you really feel better about yourself knowing they COULD have been set free? Are they any less dead?

 

[KatNotKathy]

The difference is that we can easily prevent these deaths without any real negative side effects. Try doing that with cars.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are more likely to die driving than the government putting an innocent person to death. Do you support the abolition of motor vehicles?

According to a study done by the FDA, linked to by an article in the LA Times, you're more likely to die undergoing plastic surgery than by driving. Do you have the same passion regarding the abolition of plastic surgery?

Life isn't perfect. People aren't perfect. Systems aren't perfect. But they can be pretty damn careful.

I'm all in favor of killing in the name of retribution, revenge, justice & deterrence, but the problem is the justice system. It's worse than imperfect
in my experience....it's a bumbling blunt instrument, very much prone to error. I like punishment to be reversible when errors are found. Jury duty
was an eye opener.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

I'm sorry but I'd rather be put to death for a crime that I did not commit then spend the rest of life in prison for a crime I did not commit.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Consider for a moment the argument that life in prison is a harsher punishment than death, because with death, it's all over and the criminal isn't suffering anymore.

You'd rather innocent people go through that?

If they die in prison serving a life sentence for a crime they didn't commit, is that really any better than having been put to death? Would you really feel better about yourself knowing they COULD have been set free? Are they any less dead?

If life in prison is so much worse than death, why don't we just make executions voluntary?

Fwiw, I find it hard to believe that limited freedom is a fate worse than oblivion.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I mean really, the fact that we don't release all our innocent prisoners is no argument that we should be killing innocent people.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The difference is that we can easily prevent these deaths without any real negative side effects. Try doing that with cars.

The vast majority of collisions involving motor vehicles are easily preventable.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of innocent people who have become the victims of murderers who should have been put to death.

One example... Kenneth McDuff... Originally sentenced to three death sentences for the murder of three people.... yet his sentence was commuted to life... and he was eventually let out of prison due to prison overpopulation.

He subsequently murdered at least 6 more people... though he is believed to have murdered at least 14 people altogether.


And then there was Lemuel Smith. Sentenced to 50 years for two murders.... and could have been convicted of two more, had someone not decided "he isn't getting out of prison anyway"...

How right they were. He wasn't going anywhere, and he didn't have to. On May 15th, 1981, he murdered (and thoroughly mutilated) a female correctional officer by the name of Donna Payant. For this (first degree murder), the death penalty was mandatory.... however, the court found some excuse to declare New York State law unconstitutional, and he was given an additional life sentence.

Here's what he had to say on the matter:

"I got so much time they can't do nothing to me," he said. "Think about it. If I wanted some sex, I could rape, I could sodomize. They can't do nothing to me!"


Donna Payant had a husband and three children. She would still be alive today if Lemuel Smith were put to death like he should have been.

Compared to the amount of murders committed in this country in any given year, the application of the death penalty is so rare it seems like it hardly exists at all. The likelihood of putting an innocent person to death is nearly non-existent, and getting smaller as technology improves.


People being paroled... people having their death sentences commuted... people escaping from prison... people wrongly being pardoned or exonerated.... this has resulted in more innocent deaths in the past 33 years than the death penalty has.

I want people like Kenneth McDuff and Lemuel Smith being put to death the first time around.

You want them to have three square meals a day, a bed, a shower, medical care, and color television.


Do you really feel good about that?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I know this but people kept jumping on me because I don't have a problem with the death penalty. They kept jumping on me and asking me if I think it's right for innocent people to be executed. I don't think innocents should be executed but I belive if it can be proven WITHOUT a doubt that they did it than by all means execute. They were making me out to be some kind of monster. They were getting on me like I don't value human life and that I should care about every single person in the world.

Yeah. You gotta realize, though, that when people debate issues related to human life, we tend to take the matter personally. And when we toss in matters such as proven innocents having been put to death, botched executions, etc., that just makes the matter sticker. So I think if you'll sort through the anger, you'll see that they actually do make some good points.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I mean really, the fact that we don't release all our innocent prisoners is no argument that we should be killing innocent people.

We don't try to execute innocent people. This happening is a rarity.