UU Christian Congregation

[EverChanging]

At Epiphany Community Church there is no creed, no statement of belief that everybody must adhere to in order to belong. We share certain principles, and come together in covenant, a promise we make to each other and God. Epiphany’s covenant is:

“In the love of truth and the spirit of Jesus Christ, we unite for the worship of God and the service of humanity.”

Epiphany Community Church, UU - Fenton, Michigan

I have a question: wouldn't this congregation exclude Unitarian Universalists who are not theistic or do not identify with Christianity? If not, what could this covenant mean to those who are not only atheistic, but polytheistic, pantheistic, etc.?

 

[J Bryson]

Epiphany Community Church, UU - Fenton, Michigan

I have a question: wouldn't this congregation exclude Unitarian Universalists who are not theistic or do not identify with Christianity? If not, what could this covenant mean to those who are not only atheistic, but polytheistic, pantheistic, etc.?

Interestingly enough, you asked this question on the very day that my minister (who usually sticks to humanist themes) gave a sermon on Jesus, and the meaning of his ministry. Specifically, Clyde stated that Jesus was originally a follower of John the Baptist, and as such was part of a ministry that was attempting to provide an alternative to the onerous rituals and fees imposed by the Jewish priesthood at the time that they lived. He was revolutionary in his positive treatment of women, his attention to the lower economic classes, and especially in his compassionate attention to those who were considered "unclean" by the priesthood (lepers, the lame, the blind, etc.) and therefore subjected to pariah status within the community.

If you discount the miracles (unproven and inconsistently described in Scripture) and the resurrection (again, unproven and highly doubtful), then he comes across as a rather amazing figure with deep convictions regarding social justice and the need to treat all with dignity and respect. In other words, the ideal UU.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I have a question: wouldn't this congregation exclude Unitarian Universalists who are not theistic or do not identify with Christianity? If not, what could this covenant mean to those who are not only atheistic, but polytheistic, pantheistic, etc.?

Nope. There are still a lot of Unitarian Christians within the UU church and some churches have a decidedly Christian slant to them. What is important to be a UU church, IMHO, is the lack of creed. I have no problem with a congregation being mostly Christian just like I have no problem with a congregation being mostly Pagan.

 

[EverChanging]

Interestingly enough, you asked this question on the very day that my minister (who usually sticks to humanist themes) gave a sermon on Jesus, and the meaning of his ministry. Specifically, Clyde stated that Jesus was originally a follower of John the Baptist, and as such was part of a ministry that was attempting to provide an alternative to the onerous rituals and fees imposed by the Jewish priesthood at the time that they lived. He was revolutionary in his positive treatment of women, his attention to the lower economic classes, and especially in his compassionate attention to those who were considered "unclean" by the priesthood (lepers, the lame, the blind, etc.) and therefore subjected to pariah status within the community.

If you discount the miracles (unproven and inconsistently described in Scripture) and the resurrection (again, unproven and highly doubtful), then he comes across as a rather amazing figure with deep convictions regarding social justice and the need to treat all with dignity and respect. In other words, the ideal UU.

I get your point, but it doesn't really answer the question about the covenant, and as for Jesus, there is debate as to whether he ever existed. The gospels are certainly not history and were never intended to be. There are both good and bad statements attributed to Jesus in the Bible, and different people focus on different statements. Most people seem to think that, whether they subscribe to liberal or fundamentalist views, Jesus would have agreed with them.

Nope. There are still a lot of Unitarian Christians within the UU church and some churches have a decidedly Christian slant to them. What is important to be a UU church, IMHO, is the lack of creed. I have no problem with a congregation being mostly Christian just like I have no problem with a congregation being mostly Pagan.

Okay, I understand that. However, how could an atheist ever affirm the covenant of this church, which includes worship of God:

“In the love of truth and the spirit of Jesus Christ, we unite for the worship of God and the service of humanity.”

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Okay, I understand that. However, how could an atheist ever affirm the covenant of this church, which includes worship of God:

Atheist who go to a UU Church always have to deal with the fact that they share space with believers of God. I'm not sure what you mean by "affirm the covenant" of the church. I don't remember affirming anything at the UU Church I belong to. A Christian leaning UU church isn't going to have any additinal doctrine to believe or not believe in. It should just mean that Sunday Services will cover the topic of Chrisianity more often than other topics and maybe the RE program will have more Christian themes.

 

[EverChanging]

I'm not sure what you mean by "affirm the covenant" of the church.

I quoted the covenant in the very first post. This is what they covenant:

We share certain principles, and come together in covenant, a promise we make to each other and God. Epiphany’s covenant is:

“In the love of truth and the spirit of Jesus Christ, we unite for the worship of God and the service of humanity.”

My question is how a Unitarian Universalist atheist, polytheist, etc. could affirm a covenant that is understood by the church to be to God? How can an atheist covenant to unite for the worship of God? I wonder how this covenant has not become exclusive.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

My question is how a Unitarian Universalist atheist, polytheist, etc. could affirm a covenant that is understood by the church to be to God? How can an atheist covenant to unite for the worship of God? I wonder how this covenant has not become exclusive.

Strange. I would ask them that very question and then let us know what they said. It almost sounds like full blown Unitarian Christians rather than UUs. Maybe they are skating the border.

Welcome to the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
Unitarian Christianity

 

[Storm]

How many UU churches are in the area? Maybe they're just filling a niche.

 

[J Bryson]

It seems that there's a couple of others within driving distance of the Community Center where they hold services. It sounds to me like they didn't want to give up their entire church history, and somehow managed to come to terms with the UUA. It's a bit like the pagan UU groups, in that they do tend to lean more towards one belief system, but are accepting and appreciative of anyone who follows the principles.

UUA: Search Results

 

[uu_sage]

Epiphany Community Church, Unitarian Universalist is a member of the Council of Christian Churches in the UUA, and is the first Christian UU church chartered since the '61 merger of the Universalists and the Unitarians. Epiphany was established in 1996. I know a couple members at Epiphany and met them at the UU Christian Fellowship (UUCF) Revival in Cleveland two years ago. As a UU Christian, and a soon to be minister in this denomination, I and many others feel unwelcomed in some UU churches and sadly many of us have to leave our denomination in order to worship God and follow Jesus in freedom. There is a wide spectrum of opinions of what it means to follow Jesus, and how we approach God, scripture and so much more. ALL SOULS are invited to table just as it was with Jesus and his ministry when he included those who the empire and the religious authorities had deemed outsiders or "sinners". To help you explore the vastness of our UU Christian faith I point you to an article entitled, "Who are the UU Christians?" by the Rev. Thomas Wintle

 

[lunamoth]

Epiphany Community Church, Unitarian Universalist is a member of the Council of Christian Churches in the UUA, and is the first Christian UU church chartered since the '61 merger of the Universalists and the Unitarians. Epiphany was established in 1996. I know a couple members at Epiphany and met them at the UU Christian Fellowship (UUCF) Revival in Cleveland two years ago. As a UU Christian, and a soon to be minister in this denomination, I and many others feel unwelcomed in some UU churches and sadly many of us have to leave our denomination in order to worship God and follow Jesus in freedom. There is a wide spectrum of opinions of what it means to follow Jesus, and how we approach God, scripture and so much more. ALL SOULS are invited to table just as it was with Jesus and his ministry when he included those who the empire and the religious authorities had deemed outsiders or "sinners". To help you explore the vastness of our UU Christian faith I point you to an article entitled, "Who are the UU Christians?" by the Rev. Thomas Wintle

uu sage, are you saying that you would not feel welcome at Epiphany, or that you have felt unwelcome at some other UU churches?

 

[uu_sage]

I would not be welcome at most other UU churches. But any of the UU Christian churches would welcome me in a heartbeat.

 

[lunamoth]

I would not be welcome at most other UU churches. But any of the UU Christian churches would welcome me in a heartbeat.

Thank you for the clarification. I did not catch the UU Christian distinction you made at first, but now I see it also in your user title info.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I would not be welcome at most other UU churches.

I've seen a lot of Christian bashing going on at UU churchs and I wonder if it makes some of our Christain brethern feel unwelcomed. I know some are at the very least uncomfortable and complain of not getting enough Jesus.

Most of the Christian bashing comes from ex-Christians rather than the Buddhists, Pagans, Humanists or Atheists. It's kind of like ex-smokers, very annoying to those who still want to have the occasional cigar.

 

[EverChanging]

When I first broke away from a destructive religious environment, I was at times very anti-Christian, though that faded long before I became an atheist. (I believed in some kind of vague higher power for a long time.) I still have a really big problem with fundamentalists in general trying to force their religion on everyone and blurring the line of separation between church and state, but I have made a distinction between liberal Christianity and fundamentalist Christianity for a long time.

The moderates seem to be good people, in general, but in my experience in different moderate churches, they were more willing to tolerate homophobia and other kinds of intolerance in their churches, even those who were progressive.

That being said, it's sad that liberal Christians often feel like they can't be a part of Unitarian Universalism. We need all of the help we can get making the world a better place. There's no shame in uniting with people of different persuasions to do a good thing.

 

[EverChanging]

I just e-mailed the church to ask my question. I'm interested to see their response.

I do think their church sounds very interesting, especially since they keep the whole Christian church year, or most of it. I just don't know about the covenant...sounds too exclusive.

 

[lilithu]

I am glad that I waited a day to respond, because yesterday I read the OP as an indirect complaint about the fact that we have Christian congregations in our denomination and today I see that it's an honest question about how a congregation might explicitly espouse belief in God and Christ while not marginalizing people who believe otherwise.

I think that, as Storm suggested, there are UU congregations that are not trying to be all things to all UUs. They are filling the needs of a specific subset of UUs, which would necessarily marginalize those who believe otherwise. But they are at the same time remaining open to being in community with people who think otherwise IF for some reason such people want to join. IFor example, if for some reason, I joined the Washington Ethical Society (which affiliated with the UUA last year), it would be with the understanding that their language and practices will be different from what I am comfortable with. They are not going to change their languages and practices to suit my views. But otoh, if for some reason I still wanted to join, they would accept me as part of their community.

 

[EverChanging]

Is the church's personal covenant, then, not binding, since an atheist could not authentically affirm to worship God?

 

[lilithu]

Is the church's personal covenant, then, not binding, since an atheist could not authentically affirm to worship God?

It's certainly an interesting question. On the one hand, I am not sure how a covenant in a UU congregation is ever binding... seeing as how we often have no repercussions to people violating covenant. Otoh, since we have no creed, our UU identity as a community centers around the covenant.

Let us know how the church responds.


fwiw, I know a few atheists who could affirm the covenant. They just interpret "God" in a way that allows them to do so. It helps if one is familiar with Tillich. Not that he was an atheist. But his theology defined God in such a way that some (by no means all) atheists can find authentically meaningful. It is, of course, up to each person to decide whether his conceptions are useful.

 

[EverChanging]

I suppose one could still affirm the covenant even as an atheist because "God" means so many different things to people, especially Unitarian Universalists, and the website of the church itself says that the UU Christians also have a wide range of perspectives. Even then, however, many atheists (and even those who aren't atheists) do not want to use the "g word" because it means so many different things.

I'm still waiting for a response from the church.

I tend to think, however, that since they are a Unitarian Universalist congregation and since a congregation in the UUA is never to use a covenant as a creedal test, that they would be open to atheists, pagans, and others as well.