UU Roots

[Trey of Diamonds]

I was just wondering how many UUs consider themselves Unitarian and how many consider themselves Universalist, and how many don't identify with either. I can't subscribe to the Universalist belief that there is a Heaven but not a Hell. I'm too Taoist to believe that there can be one without the other. I consider myself to be Unitarian because I'm anti-trinitarian and still mostly consider myself to be Christian, or at least Christian leaning.

 

[Storm]

I was just wondering how many UUs consider themselves Unitarian and how many consider themselves Universalist, and how many don't identify with either.

It takes a bit of stretching, but both can be said to fit me.

I can subscribe to the Universalist belief that there is a Heaven but not a Hell. I'm too Taoist to believe that there can be one without the other.

I'm confused. Was that supposed to be "can't," because you just totally contradicted yourself.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I'm confused. Was that supposed to be "can't," because you just totally contradicted yourself.

Yep, a typo that I corrected but you must have hit the quote button right before I did.

 

[Storm]

Don't you just hate when that happens? Ah well, no worries.

 

[Storm]

So, you can't believe in one without the other. Does that mean you believe in both, or neither?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Well, I don't believe in the traditional views of Heaven and Hell, ie firey pits and buildings in the clouds. The afterlife is something I often ponder on and have yet to come to any conclusions for. I would like to think reincarnation is an option but merging our self with the greater energy of the universe sounds pretty cool too. I do feel that if there is something that equates to Heaven, then there must also be something that equates to Hell. You can not have good without evil.

 

[Green Gaia]

I assume you mean the more traditional views of Unitarians and Universalists? I chose both because I couldn't choose one over the other or neither at all.

On the question of Heaven and Hell, I don't believe in the traditional view of either. But I do hold open the possibility of an afterlife, however I do not believe that will be a place of reward or punishment.

 

[Wolfscout1]

I assume you mean the more traditional views of Unitarians and Universalists? I chose both because I couldn't choose one over the other or neither at all.

On the question of Heaven and Hell, I don't believe in the traditional view of either. But I do hold open the possibility of an afterlife, however I do not believe that will be a place of reward or punishment.

Much the same here. though I could say I learn more heavily towards Universalists than I do Unitarian. It's more exact to call me eclectic.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I can understand the traditional position of the Unitarians, certainly as found in the UK.
I am less sure of my ground with universalism.

From my vantage point in the UK, they seem to actually be quite separate faiths.

The Unitarians I have met and their chapels here seem to be far removed from the UU's

Can any one explain the connection?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

In the US the two churches have merged into the Unitarian Universalist Church. In the UK and the rest of the world they are separate and as I understand it, the UK Unitarians are still very Christian as opposed to US UUs who admit roots in Christianity but most consider themselves to be separate from the Christian denominations.

 

[madcap]

As I understand it, the principle of Universalism isn't that everyone goes to heaven; rather, it is that no one requires salvation. So that a belief or not in heaven is irrelevant, so long as you don't believe in hell.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

As I understand it, the principle of Universalism isn't that everyone goes to heaven; rather, it is that no one requires salvation. So that a belief or not in heaven is irrelevant, so long as you don't believe in hell.

That isn't how I understood it. It isn't that no one requires salvation, it's that everyone gets salvation, Universal Salvation.

From Wiki - Universalism
In the seventeenth-century and eighteenth-century Europe and America, other Christian reformers discovered little biblical support for the Christian concept of hell. These reformers came to believe in a universally loving God and felt that God would grant all human beings salvation. They became known as the Universalists.

So let's ignore the idea of a physical location for Heaven or Hell. If there is Salvation, then there must be Damnation as well. You can not have an absolute without an opposite to counter balance it. (Although, to tell the truth, I don't think absolutes truely exist anyway .)

 

[lilithu]

As I understand it, the principle of Universalism isn't that everyone goes to heaven; rather, it is that no one requires salvation. So that a belief or not in heaven is irrelevant, so long as you don't believe in hell.

That's not the traditional view of Universalism. The best summary that I've heard between Unitarians and Universalists was given by Thomas Starr King, after whom our seminary in Berkeley is named after.

Universalists believe that everyone goes to heaven because God is too good to send people to hell. And Unitarians believe that everyone goes to heaven because people are too good to be sent to hell.

I voted both. Theologically, I have no objection to the trinity but it's not how I relate to God. I relate unitarianly. Moreover, I think American Unitarianism has more to do with affirming the inherent worth of every person than it is about rejecting the trinity. It's a statement about what we believe about our own natures, rather than a statement of what we believe about God's nature. And for me, tho this is not the traditional view of Universalism I think it's in keeping with its spirit, universalism means that "we are all in this together." I don't believe in a heaven aside from the one we make here on earth (similarly for hell). So for me, it's not about everyone being allowed into heaven. It's more that any heaven is of our own making and I see universalism as recognizing the truth that we cannot create heaven so long as we try to exclude people from it. Thus, no one is saved unless everyone is saved.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Universalists believe that everyone goes to heaven because God is too good to send people to hell. And Unitarians believe that everyone goes to heaven because people are too good to be sent to hell.

This is true, except when it isn't.

 

[lilithu]

This is true, except when it isn't.

lol. Well, Starr King lived almost 150 years ago. U/U was simpler then.

 

[applewuud]

That isn't how I understood it. It isn't that no one requires salvation, it's that everyone gets salvation, Universal Salvation.

Traditional Universalists did believe in a limited hell, actually...dealing with the problem of injustice unpunished and the logical issue that Trey mentions by allowing for purgatory.

What offended the original Universalists was the Christian doctrine of eternal punishment. Hosea Ballou made an excellent case that having an eternal punishment for a finite crime or transgression is inherently unjust, and does not befit a God of justice. He did allow for a period of limited punishment in an afterlife, before the eventual salvation of all souls.

For myself, historically speaking, I'm probably a "trinitarian universalist", e.g., I don't mind seeing different aspects of the one god illuminated by the aspects of father, son, and holy spirit, or by the thousands of other names and aspects attributed to the infinite. And, I think the idea that certain people are condemned eternally and others are not, at the hands of a divine being, is monstrous.

In any case, as a religious humanist, I wish we could rename our Faith. Both of our names refer to 18th-century religious controversies that don't have much traction in today's thought. It's an awkward name to say and write, besides. The contraction "UU" isn't that appealing either.

Fact is, Unitarians and Universalists "glued themselves together" in 1961 for organizational convenience and never did the theological work to truly create something new out of their separate histories. We glossed over our differences and celebrated our similarities. Now, we've become something else altogether, as our placement in the "syncretic" part of RF denotes. I hope that the name "Unitarian Universalism" will be exchanged for something else someday, though I have no idea what that might be.

 

[bicker]

For myself, historically speaking, I'm probably a "trinitarian universalist", e.g., I don't mind seeing different aspects of the one god illuminated by the aspects of father, son, and holy spirit, or by the thousands of other names and aspects attributed to the infinite.

I think, though, that that excludes you from consideration as any type of trinitarian, at least in the manner the word evokes its historical controversies. My understanding is that that term implies belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, specifically. Non-Christian unitarian perspective doesn't preclude divinity having many aspects.

In any case, as a religious humanist, I wish we could rename our Faith.

While I agree that the term "Unitarian" is a bit off-the-mark with regard to UU, I think the term "Universalism" fits very well, perhaps not in its original context, but as a word, at least.

Both of our names refer to 18th-century religious controversies that don't have much traction in today's thought.

The unitarian/trinitarian controversy goes back about 2000 years.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

What offended the original Universalists was the Christian doctrine of eternal punishment.

Good point.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Non-Christian unitarian perspective

Greeting bicker! What is a non-Christian unitarian perspective? Unitarianism itself is a Christian denomination and many of today's UUs who identify with Unitarinism consider themselves Christian still.

 

[bicker]

There's a difference between Unitarian and unitarian. From Wikipedia,

... the term "unitarian" (lower case "u") is sometimes used descriptively to refer to anyone adhering to the teaching of the single personhood of God.

As such, it need not have anything to do with Christianity. Indeed, Jews are, explicitly, unitarian. "Trinitarian", by contrast, I believe indicates only something specific, i.e., belief in "the Holy Trinity", i.e., the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".