UU Scouting

[Green Gaia]

In a recent thread about Boy Scouts Discrimination I voiced my opposition to letting my son participate with the Boy Scouts because of that discrimination against gays and atheists.

Today, I had some time to look up the UUA's statement on the Boy Scouts and found this page, The UUA and the Boy Scouts giving the history of the two organizations. The conflict between the two arose because of the Boy Scouts discrimination against gays and atheists and the UUA passed a resolution opposing these discriminatory practices, and revised its Religion in Life award manual to include information on the Association's stance on these issues. In turn, the Boy Scouts withdrew its authorization of the UUA's Religion in Life award because of the information in the Religion in Life manual. After a series of meetings, the Association agreed to revise its manual to remove the language the BSA found offensive and instead to inform UU scouts of its opposition to religious and sexual discrimination through other means. The BSA at first restored authorization for the award, but then rescinded its reauthorization. The UUA continues to encourage UU scouts to work for the Religion in Life emblem, to have it presented to them by their congregations, and to wear it with pride on the appropriate place on their uniforms.

I know that some congregations are trying to restore a relationship with the Boy Scouts and I wonder how they are getting around the discrimination that we oppose. In the thread I mentioned above I stated I would not want my son to participate in an anti-gay organization. If the Boy Scouts were to revise their stance on gays and atheists I would love to let him join and I know he would love it too. Many boys in his class at school are Boy Scouts and it's an important part of childhood for many boys. But if I let him join now with their current discriminatory stances against atheists and gays I would feel I was betraying not only what I believe in but also what I try to teach my kids. He may have fun camping and learning volunteerism, but I feel I failed him to teach him the more important lesson of standing up for what you believe in.

So help me my fellow UUs. How can I let my son participate in this otherwise wonderful organization and not feel like a hypocrite? (Please note: I am not calling any UU parent who lets their son participate in the BSA a hypocrite. I am only saying I would feel like one given what I know about their stances against gays and atheists.)

 

[Davidium]

Maize,

You have a way of bringing up issues that touch my heart....

I am an Eagle Scout. The BSA has meant amazing things to me in my life. In many ways, the ideals that I learned in Scouting are part of why I am a UU now. Respect for nature, the interdependence of all things, the importance of conservation, the equality of all, and so much more are things that I learned in Scouting.

It has been a tear in my heart to see my beloved scouting betraying some of those ideals in the name of religious conservativism.

Lets face it, no matter what others might say, much of the exclusion of Gays and Atheists from the scouting ranks comes from the dependence of the BSA on conservative religious organizations for support and funding. The UUA does not have any pull within the organization because the UUA does not significantly fund the organizaiton and has not for decades.

So much so that many UU's and others are working to found an independent scouting organization, the "Baden-Powell Scouts" that is inclusive in race, gender, religious affiliation, and sexual orientation. For more information on their efforts, please visit http://www.bpscouting.org/

But their efforts are failing, because of funding and because UU congregations have not gotten behind the effort and pushed.

I am a supporter of Scouting for All, http://www.scoutingforall.org/, an organization within the BSA that is pushing for ending policies of exclusivity, but once again, we have little influence because we have little money... and because the congregations that the BSA depends on for support have no interest in ending exclusivity.... far from it. In fact, I fear the exclusion will get worse, to eventually identify the "God" concept that all scouts must swear to honor, with the Judeo-Christian God. I even feel that they may eventually seek to exclude Islam.

Such is my fear for the organization I love and grew up in. As a military child, the BSA was my anchor as we moved from post to post. There was always a Boy Scout Troop for me to join.

I am a UU in part because I am an Eagle Scout. That the two are no longer compatable hurts me.

Yours in Faith,

David

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I would allow the participation if the child desired it with the stipulation that they would have to study the opposing view. At a young age that would mean discussion with the child about what the Scouts believe and what the UU Church believes. For older children it would mean writing papers on the different viewpoints that were aggressively researched.

I think your goal should not be to make your child think that the Scouts are wrong just because you disagree with them but rather to let the Scouts present their beliefs and you to present yours in order for the child to make a reasonable decision based on the information. In other words, teach your child how to make decisions, not what decisions to make. And this could be considered a good real life experience in doing just that. After all, when they grow up they will have to look at political parties and other organizations that they only partly agree with and make a decision based on what they know about that organization. Teach them now how to do that.

I think it will be very rare to find an organization that we fully believe in. Anytime you have more than three people in a group there will be dissention. I have a daughter, (four years old), and if she wants to be a Girl Scout I would let her, but I doubt I would encourage it due to the our differences in opinion. Still, if all her friends are in the Scouts and she wants to be I would look at her needs before my own and just make her listen to me from my soap box a lot. I have a feeling she is going to be really tired of that soap box.

Hope this helps,

Trey

 

[Green Gaia]

I am a UU in part because I am an Eagle Scout. That the two are no longer compatable hurts me.

:hug:

Thank you David for your insight. I know there are other organizations out there that are inclusive, but like you said, they are floundering. The congregation I am a member of now had a similar organization for both boys and girls, but it died before we even moved here. The thing is I know he would love scouting and there would be many wonderful things he would learn from scouting. But how do I reconcile that with what I know about them? I've talked to him about it some, and tried to let him come to his own conclusions. He admits he would really like to do scouting (mostly, I think because many of his school friends do), but in very general terms I've told him that the Boy Scouts excludes certian groups. He was not comfortable with that at all. We talk about inclusiviness A LOT and he recongizes when someone is not being included and it bothers him.

Trey, to date I've not pushed the subject too much with him because I think 7 may be too young to make him struggle with the "what my friends are doing" vs. "what my beliefs are" conflict. Standing up to your friends who are doing something that is against the rules is one thing. But standing up to them because of something like this is very different. But in a way I want him to learn that too. I want him to grow up following his heart and beliefs and not just what his buddies are doing. And I know my son, if we talk about this indepth and in detail he would choose not to join and when asked by his buddies why he didn't join he would say so. So far I've sheilded him from having to defend a gay mom, and I'm not sure he's ready (or me either) for him to be made fun of because he defends gays and atheists against his buddies. We live in a very conservative part of the country and I have no illusions about what most kids at his school are being taught at home and church about gays and atheists.

 

[MaddLlama]

I'm not a UU, but I feel like I still have the same values, so I wanted to chime in something small:

The BSA as an organization is discriminatory, yes, however the attitude towards this varies from group to group. Most troop leaders, I would hope, wouldn't teach thier scouts that the attitude of the BSA is the correct one to have - as in if your son joined the scouts he wouldn't be taught directly that homosexuality is wrong. No, he wouldn't make any friends in the scouts that are gay but I think as long as the troop he joins isn't towing that party line to a fault, then he wouldn't get mixed messages. He sounds like a really smart kid, probably because he's got a smart mom.

Try contacting some of the local troop leaders about your concerns (even anyonymously), and see what they say.

And, who knows, maybe if you both get involved, you can help the campaigns to change thier policies.

 

[BrandonE]

My son's only three, but I also want there to be a scouting organization for him to be involved in as I know he would love it (he LOVES to be outside). I found the Camp Fire USA website (here), but it doesn't seem to offer a way to find local groups.

At any rate, he's only 3, but I share your concerns Amy, and I don't know what my wife and I will do yet.

I do like what Trey had to say about going ahead and letting him participate but arming him to make his own decisions.

 

[Green Gaia]

I'm not a UU, but I feel like I still have the same values, so I wanted to chime in something small:

The BSA as an organization is discriminatory, yes, however the attitude towards this varies from group to group. Most troop leaders, I would hope, wouldn't teach thier scouts that the attitude of the BSA is the correct one to have - as in if your son joined the scouts he wouldn't be taught directly that homosexuality is wrong. No, he wouldn't make any friends in the scouts that are gay but I think as long as the troop he joins isn't towing that party line to a fault, then he wouldn't get mixed messages. He sounds like a really smart kid, probably because he's got a smart mom.

Try contacting some of the local troop leaders about your concerns (even anyonymously), and see what they say.

And, who knows, maybe if you both get involved, you can help the campaigns to change thier policies.

HA! That's all I need, another campaign! :cover:

I don't know. This is always a big issue at the beginning of school because that's when they recruit the kids at school. I also have issue with the BSA not allowing a UU badge for the Religion in Life emblem when it allows other religious symbols.

So, this something that he and I are going to have to talk about a lot. I just wish I knew a troop leader that I knew I could trust and could confinde my concerns in. That would make me feel better.

 

[Smoke]

My son's only three, but I also want there to be a scouting organization for him to be involved in as I know he would love it (he LOVES to be outside). I found the Camp Fire USA website (here), but it doesn't seem to offer a way to find local groups.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a Campfire Council in Virginia.

Maize, have you considered starting a scouting-type group at your church, without affiliating with the BSA?

 

[Green Gaia]

My son's only three, but I also want there to be a scouting organization for him to be involved in as I know he would love it (he LOVES to be outside). I found the Camp Fire USA website (here), but it doesn't seem to offer a way to find local groups.

At any rate, he's only 3, but I share your concerns Amy, and I don't know what my wife and I will do yet.

I do like what Trey had to say about going ahead and letting him participate but arming him to make his own decisions.

The thing is, I know my son wouldn't be able to not say something about the discrimination (too much like his mom) and I'm afraid it may get him into some trouble with his friends that he's not ready for. I'm also concerned about the move towards conservatism that David mentioned. I'm concerned about the large influence Christian churches have with the BSA.

 

[Green Gaia]

Maize, have you considered starting a scouting-type group at your church, without affiliating with the BSA?

NO. I loved Girl Scouts, but being a troop leader is not something I really want to do, boys or girls. My plate is overflowing at the moment anyway. There was a scouting group at my church at one time, but it is no longer active.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

The BSA as an organization is discriminatory, yes, however the attitude towards this varies from group to group. Most troop leaders, I would hope, wouldn't teach thier scouts that the attitude of the BSA is the correct one to have - as in if your son joined the scouts he wouldn't be taught directly that homosexuality is wrong. No, he wouldn't make any friends in the scouts that are gay but I think as long as the troop he joins isn't towing that party line to a fault, then he wouldn't get mixed messages. He sounds like a really smart kid, probably because he's got a smart mom.

This really is probably the case, trouble is knowing which troops just try not to bring the subject up and which ones use the Scouts to further their own agendas.

Try contacting some of the local troop leaders about your concerns (even anyonymously), and see what they say.

This is probably the only way to know and you have already posted the issues with it.

Hard to know what to advise, seven is a difficult age for such a complex topic. Very difficult decision for you, best of luck.

 

[lilithu]

Wow, all the responses are so... UU. I take a much more cut and dry approach to this (tho you should also keep in mind that I'm not a parent).

David knows that I have the greatest respect for him, and the fact that he attributes to the Boy Scouts some of his fine character is not lost on me. That said, times change, and what may have once been a stellar experience may be less so now.

I don't know whether you should or should not let your son join the Scouts, Maize (just as I don't know whether you should or should not bring up issues of heterosexism at a family wedding. Man, you raise some difficult questions!). What I do know (or have reason to strongly believe) is that if you should decide not to let him join, based on personal conviction, it will not be the end of the world. He will not end up scarred for life, etc. Lots of kids join the Scouts, and I'm sure they learn good things from it that build strong character. Lots of kids don't join and they learn similar lessons from elsewhere. Abstaining from something fun because of one's beliefs also builds character. I know that parents are loathe to ask their children to sacrifice anything, and I'm not advocating that's what should be done. All I'm saying is that it won't be the end of the world if you do.

And I trust that you'll make the decision that's best for both of you.

 

[Green Gaia]

Thanks Lilithu, and everyone for the great responses. I know no one else can make this decision for us, but it's helpful to hear how other handle similar situations. I appreciate everyone's input.

I am still against him joining and he and I have had several talks about that and he understands why. However, it seems our (my) busy schedule made the decision for us regardless; we can simply not do anything else right now, which my son understands as well. The after-school science program will have to be enough for him this term.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If I can be of any assistance in helping you to understand the structure of the BSA or in helping to engender a change in these areas, I would love to be a part.

Maize, while the upper echelon of the BSA is blind to it's own bigotry, the Scouts are never fed this bias unless it is a part of their charter organization. According to the BSA, the individual charter organization actually owns the unit, lock stock and barrel. They determine WHO can be a leader and WHAT types of behaviors are acceptable (within the confines of law). That they would dare tamper not only with UUs, but with United Churches of Christs as well is not only short sided but against their charter with the US Congress.

There is a hope for change on the horizon. In 2000 the BSA made room for girls in the organization with the advent of Venture Scouting. We need to pierce the corporate veil (the National HQ is in Plano Texas) and rescue Scouting from the bigots.

 

[Green Gaia]

I hope you do, Pete. In fact, if you are leading the charge I have no doubt of it.

However, I can only fight on so many fronts at once. I have to let this one go, at least for the time being.

 

[uumckk16]

Maize, while the upper echelon of the BSA is blind to it's own bigotry, the Scouts are never fed this bias unless it is a part of their charter organization.

This is true, from what I know at least. I know an Eagle Scout (so obviously Boy Scouts has been a big part of his life) and he was surprised to hear about the BSA having issues with gays.