Vatican Blasts Trans Surgery, Surogacy, Etc

[danieldemol]

In the Catechism, it states that we have the right of dissent, which does not apply to those who teach within the Church in regards to what they teach.

An excellent book [Catholic] that covers this is "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide". However, I don't know if it's still in publication.

Do you have a more specific citation than a four part catechism each consisting of several chapters?

 

[Brian2]

Where does the Pope give you permission to follow science when it clashes with church dogma?

Surrogacy has nothing to do with science and I don't know what the Catholic Church has against it anyway.
A phychological theory that people can be whatever gender they think they are does not seem to have much to do with real science.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nah, that was hundreds of years ago. Today, they are just happy when some of the dissenters don't leave by themselves. There really is only one thing that gets you expelled: not paying your taxes/tithes. Priorities.

Priests still get excommunicated.
I know a couple of them, from Sicily.
Who dared contradict His Majesty Franciscus.

 

[Glaurung]

Fernández had cast the document as something of a nod to conservatives after he authored a more explosive document approving blessings for same-sex couples that sparked criticism from conservative bishops around the world, especially in Africa.
​

I haven't read the document as I've more or less stopped paying attention to anything Francis or the Church does or says at this point. But I speculate that the near revolt triggered by the gay blessings debacle spooked Francis and his handlers. They're going to take a marginally more conservative tone from here on in order to shore up Francis' legitimacy in the eyes of the conservatives.

Anyone who thinks they're going to push through liberal doctrinal reforms much beyond what they've already done is delusional. The Vatican may be liberal, but they don't want schism.

 

[danieldemol]

A phychological theory that people can be whatever gender they think they are does not seem to have much to do with real science.

I'm not sure but I suspect that there is not a theory that people can be whatever gender they think they are.

Harvard's blog about transgenderism reads as follows;

"
The fact that genetic sex can be directed by the flip of a single switch may be surprising. Sex is complex – but then again, there are a lot of other factors at play and, clearly, environment can have a big influence on how sex expresses itself. Additionally, there are many documented cases of humans with a genetic sex that appears “contrary” to their physical appearance. For instance, we know of genetically XX persons who have developed testes and external characteristics of men, and genetic XYs who develop as females. An example of the latter case occurs in Swyer Syndrome, often when there is a mutation in the SRY gene. While the rest of the Y chromosome is left intact, a malfunctioning SRY means that the male “switch” is never flipped, and the indifferent gonads do not get signals to become testes. Swyer Syndrome patients develop externally as female, but do not have ovaries and are infertile.

Finally, inheriting extra or too few chromosomes can considerably alter how sex manifests. Klinefelter is a common example, as well as Turner Syndrome (XO), where a sex chromosome is missing, often leading to developmental defects. Thus, all it takes is a small genetic change to turn SRY, or any of the genes it targets, on (or off)."

Source: “I’m XY and I Know It”: Sex Determination Systems 101 - Science in the News

 

[danieldemol]

Anyone who thinks they're going to push through liberal doctrinal reforms much beyond what they've already done is delusional. The Vatican may be liberal, but they don't want schism.

I have to say I believe this final paragraph to be true.

There are times when to agree would only make both parties wrong and it seems to me that this is one of those times. So I believe that if the Catholic Church had any genuine moral calibre as opposed to simply lusting after leadership of the largest number of people it would schism on morally important issues, alas that appears to me to not be the case.

 

[Glaurung]

I have to say I believe this final paragraph to be true.

There are times when to agree would only make both parties wrong and it seems to me that this is one of those times. So I believe that if the Catholic Church had any genuine moral calibre as opposed to simply lusting after leadership of the largest number of people it would schism on morally important issues, alas that appears to me to not be the case.

The post Vatican II Church has spent decades trying to liberalize without contradicting itself on the core issues. But you can only force square pegs into round holes so far before something breaks.

In any case a schism isn't likely because liberal Catholicism won't meaningfully exist in twenty years.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I did. I just decided yours was the perfect jump-off for me to continue to expound on my philosophy.

My fault for not reading properly.

 

[Estro Felino]

The post Vatican II Church has spent decades trying to liberalize without contradicting itself on the core issues. But you can only force square pegs into round holes so far before something breaks.

In any case a schism isn't likely because liberal Catholicism won't meaningfully exist in twenty years.

Christianity is not about sex, or people's sex life.
So these stances are really not influent.

 

[metis]

Do you have a more specific citation than a four part catechism each consisting of several chapters?

With all do respect [and I mean that], you'll have to look it up for yourself as I have so little time today and it takes me a time to find it. If I was smart, I'd have recorded it and/or earmarked my Catechism.

 

[Koldo]

Wow, y'all are letting the anti-Catholicism flow in this thread. This really doesn't matter unless you're a Catholic. I was and I left over my disagreements with its teachings. You're not going to see me blow a gasket because they still uphold those teachings. This literally is nothing new. Surrogacy, IVF and sex changes have never been permissable under Catholic teaching. I realize there wasn't a specific teaching about transgender/transsexual people but you couldn't seriously expect them to approve of it.

Nothing new?

And yet, last time I mentioned sex change not being permissible under Catholic teachings, you said there wasn't a definitive teaching on the subject, as if I couldn't present the Church's stance like that without this definitive teaching.

 

[ppp]

Wow, y'all are letting the anti-Catholicism flow in this thread.

What's is wrong with being against Catholicism? Catholicism represents a package of beliefs and calls to action; a significant subset of which are are both traditionally and currently harmful to individuals who adhere to some of those beliefs, all of those beliefs and none of those beliefs. I am anti- that irrespective of the packaging.

This really doesn't matter unless you're a Catholic.

It doesn't matter if you have no regard for how others are treated. It doesn't matter if you only care how others are treated if they belong to your particular group.

You're not going to see me blow a gasket because they still uphold those teachings.

If by "blow a gasket" you mean that we will not see you speak against the harmful behaviors of the RCC -- yeah, we got that.

 

[Brian2]

I'm not sure but I suspect that there is not a theory that people can be whatever gender they think they are.

Harvard's blog about transgenderism reads as follows;

"
The fact that genetic sex can be directed by the flip of a single switch may be surprising. Sex is complex – but then again, there are a lot of other factors at play and, clearly, environment can have a big influence on how sex expresses itself. Additionally, there are many documented cases of humans with a genetic sex that appears “contrary” to their physical appearance. For instance, we know of genetically XX persons who have developed testes and external characteristics of men, and genetic XYs who develop as females. An example of the latter case occurs in Swyer Syndrome, often when there is a mutation in the SRY gene. While the rest of the Y chromosome is left intact, a malfunctioning SRY means that the male “switch” is never flipped, and the indifferent gonads do not get signals to become testes. Swyer Syndrome patients develop externally as female, but do not have ovaries and are infertile.

Finally, inheriting extra or too few chromosomes can considerably alter how sex manifests. Klinefelter is a common example, as well as Turner Syndrome (XO), where a sex chromosome is missing, often leading to developmental defects. Thus, all it takes is a small genetic change to turn SRY, or any of the genes it targets, on (or off)."

Source: “I’m XY and I Know It”: Sex Determination Systems 101 - Science in the News

Yes it is complex and some people who feel/think they are the opposite gender to what their biology suggests could be right.
This is not scientific facts about anything however and does not make it legitimate to make it illegal to not affirm the gender that children think they are, or to suggest that these children should take puberty suppressing drugs. Most of these children, if left to sort it out, will end up affirming their own gender as being their biological sex.

 

[ppp]

Yes it is complex and some people who feel/think they are the opposite gender to what their biology suggests could be right.
This is not scientific facts about anything however and does not make it legitimate to make it illegal to not affirm the gender that children think they are, or to suggest that these children should take puberty suppressing drugs. Most of these children, if left to sort it out, will end up affirming their own gender as being their biological sex.

That is just your religious and politically based opinion. As opposed to the consensus of all the relevant disciplined of medical professionals.

I have never professionally studied the making of a city's electrical grid. I have the right to have an opinion, but one would have to be an idiot to take my opinion on how best to go about supplying electricity to a city over that of a consensus civil or electrical engineer. I would have to be an idiot to take my opinion on how best to go about supplying electricity to a city over that of a consensus civil or electrical engineer.

Your opinion on issues of physical and psychological medicines appears to be just as ill founded and unlearned as my opinion on the placement of substations.

 

[Glaurung]

Christianity is not about sex, or people's sex life.
So these stances are really not influent.

Christianity isn't about sex, but it's not silent about it.

 

[ppp]

Christianity is not about sex, or people's sex life.
So these stances are really not influent.

Christianity is deeply, intrusively and ignorantly invested in people's sex life.

 

[YoursTrue]

I go by the science regardless of what the Church teaches on this, which is a right all Catholics have.

So let me get this straight, metis. You don't believe the Pope speaks for Christ?

 

[YoursTrue]

Dissent too much, & you get excommunicated.

I remember when I was young and not knowing much about religion that I would speak to my Catholic co-workers about things and I was amazed when I heard some were refused communion or drinking of the wine because they were divorced and remarried.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes it is complex and some people who feel/think they are the opposite gender to what their biology suggests could be right.
This is not scientific facts about anything however and does not make it legitimate to make it illegal to not affirm the gender that children think they are, or to suggest that these children should take puberty suppressing drugs. Most of these children, if left to sort it out, will end up affirming their own gender as being their biological sex.

In some cases tragedies have occurred when surgeries have altered a person's sexual identity.

 

[ppp]

In some cases tragedies have occurred when surgeries have altered a person's sexual identity.

In some cases tragedies have occurred when people went to church.