Vedantins and Indologists

[Aupmanyav]

Axlyz wanted to discuss the views of Indologists vis-a-vis the traditional Vedantins. Since Hinduism is a blue DIR, we decided to come to Same-Faith Forum for a constraint-free discussion.

I'm just wondering because the indologists believe that Vishnu was a mere solar deity, while Indra was the supreme god of the Rig Veda.

So on what basis did you reject the views of all authentic Vedantins from the past 1000 years and accept the view of indologists?

Indologists do not have a Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti bias. They report what they find in our scriptures. I too accept or reject things according to what evidence comes to me from scriptures or from science (including Archaeology). Now over to Same-Faith Forum.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is Vishnu a solar deity? He is not an 'Aditya', though Wikipedia mentions him to be one. He is not mentioned as a son of Aditi. He is not a Vasu. He is not a Rudra too.

Twelve Ādityas (solar deities) - Mitra, Aryaman, Bhaga, Varuṇa, Dakṣa, Aṃśa, Tvāṣṭṛ, Pūṣan, Vivasvat, Savitṛ, Indra, Vishnu (?). This list sometimes varies in particulars. Initially there were just eight Adityas.
Eleven Rudras - consisting of Five abstractions - Ānanda (bliss), Vijñāna (knowledge), Manas (thought), Prāṇa (breath or life), Vāc (speech); and Five names of Śiva - Īśāna (ruler), Tatpuruṣa (that person), Aghora (not terrible, Vāmadeva (pleasant god), Sadyojāta (born at once) and Ātmā (self).
Eight Vasus (deities of material elements) - Pṛthivī (Earth), Agni (Fire), Antarikṣa (Space), Jal (Water), Vāyu (Wind), Dyauṣ (Sky), Sūrya (Sun), Nakṣatra (Stars), Soma (Moon).
Two Ashwins.
Thirty-three gods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chakra]

Thanks for starting the thread. I would like all Hindus interested in the matter to pitch in.

Anyway, before we start, what are some of the ground rules?

Can we quote from any accepted Vedantic Shastra (that would mean no Brahma Samhita, Devi Bhagvatam, etc)?

 

[Chakra]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, your view is that all the 33 gods are equally powerful?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, all Gods, past present, and future, are venerable for me. Now, they cannot be all equal. When it comes to Shiva, Ganesha and Subramanya; being the dad, Shiva sure gets the precedence. When it comes to Rama and Hanuman, Rama sure gets the precedence. The last chief of the Aryan Gods was Indra before Vishnu supplanted him after the amalgamation. I think that was a nice compromise.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is Vishnu a solar deity? He is not an 'Aditya', ..

See my post Saura sect in Hinduism | ReligiousForums.com. I checked and nowhere found Vishnu mentioned as an Aditya.

 

[Chakra]

Yes, all Gods, past present, and future, are venerable for me. Now, they cannot be all equal. When it comes to Shiva, Ganesha and Subramanya; being the dad, Shiva sure gets the precedence. When it comes to Rama and Hanuman, Rama sure gets the precedence. The last chief of the Aryan Gods was Indra before Vishnu supplanted him after the amalgamation. I think that was a nice compromise.

So basically, what we are arguing about is whether Indra or Vishnu was the chief of the Gods?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is your choice to choose the subject of the debate. I will reply as things come up according to my understanding. In RigVeda, Indra was many more times important than Vishnu as indicated by numbers of hymns dedicated to them, though perhaps people will agree that the worshipers of Rama and Krishna outnumber those of Shiva or Shakti in Hinduism today. At the same time, it is not that Shiva and Shakti have lost all their importance.

 

[Chakra]

Let me start with my first observation.

Shankara, Madhva, and Ramanuja (and their original followers) do not accept the idea that Indra was the supreme God of the RgVeda. This, first of all, contradicts with numerous statements in other Vedas and Upanishads, where Indra's fallibility is shown. Now here's the thing. The original Vedantins interpreted Indra as referring to Brahman, since Indra (afaik) means "Great King". Indra, the deva, is a great king, but so is Brahman. This is how Vedantins (Vaishnavas) interpreted the Vedas when it seemed that another deity was superior. So your Sacred Texts or whatever is in completely opposition to the Vedantin view. So here's my question-

Would you like to distance yourself from Advaita and Shankara completely and take the view of the indologists? This will just make it easier for me, since I am not clear on your views.

 

[Kirran]

Vedanta is certainly not just Vaishnavism. It concerns me that this Abrahamic style exclusivism is so prominent here.

 

[Chakra]

Vedanta is certainly not just Vaishnavism. It concerns me that this Abrahamic style exclusivism is so prominent here.

Whatever one's view on that topic may be (which is not the topic of the thread anyway), Adi Shankara and other Vedantins clearly did not believe that a deity is supreme based on how many hymns are attributed to its name. This is in opposition with Aup's view, so I am simply asking him for clarification.

 

[Kirran]

Whatever one's view on that topic may be (which is not the topic of the thread anyway), Adi Shankara and other Vedantins clearly did not believe that a deity is supreme based on how many hymns are attributed to its name. This is in opposition with Aup's view, so I am simply asking him for clarification.

Adi Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva were all Vedantins, and said different things. So to say that something is what 'Vedanta' says does not work for everything, due to differences between the schools of Vedanta, and the sayings of their proponents.

I don't believe Adi Shankara thought that any one deity was the Supreme.