Was American independence a good thing?

[sayak83]

Canada is doing as well or better in terms of development. So did the early independence and associated wars actually achieve? Further, slavery would have been eradicated earlier and native Americans would have gotten better treaties with the British without independence than they got with the expansionist colonies. The civil war would have been avoided. Also was it not true that the independence was about avoiding taxes that sought to pay for the debts of the costly Anglo French wars that were actually fought to secure the colonies against French aggression?

So why is fourth of July a good day to celebrate? Isn't it another example where colonial expansionist ideas won over more moderate ideas of cohabitation? Did not America go on to conquer Indian territories afterwards and created a horrible system of exploitative slavery free from the constraints of British laws?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Canada is doing as well or better in terms of development. So did the early independence and associated wars actually achieve? Further, slavery would have been eradicated earlier and native Americans would have gotten better treaties with the British without independence than they got with the expansionist colonies. The civil war would have been avoided. Also was it not true that the independence was about avoiding taxes that sought to pay for the debts of the costly Anglo French wars that were actually fought to secure the colonies against French aggression?

So why is fourth of July a good day to celebrate? Isn't it another example where colonial expansionist ideas won over more moderate ideas of cohabitation? Did not America go on to conquer Indian territories afterwards and created a horrible system of exploitative slavery free from the constraints of British laws?

The UK also got over their segregationist crap sooner, and the "bigger than Jesus" wouldn't have been a thing, like it wasn't a thing there.
Ive been telling them they should reclaim the colonies and enforce proper, civil law on the savages.

 

[February-Saturday]

Who cares? We aren't living in that timeline and there's no way we could really know what could have been. At that point, it's speculation.

As for Independence Day, it's not really about celebrating American Independence. It's about celebrating American culture, Enlightenment values, and the people who live here. It's the birthday of the nation, not a celebration of the revolution, although the two aren't mutually exclusive.

It's a great time to talk about how to better bring liberty and justice to all under the nation, or have conversations about how to better enforce constitutional rights, hopefully with some amount of optimism and some sense of accomplishment since it's supposed to be a holiday.

Every day of America is already bleak and dark and full of reminders of our skeletons. Today should not be that day. Today should be the day we look forward towards what we can become through our actions now, not a day to get caught up in what could have been.

It would be different if you were opening this conversation to talk about issues that are faced by disadvantaged minorities today in modern America because of the past. That's a conversation we should have every day. We can criticize what the government is doing now with an eye toward solutions and still celebrate America's people and culture. In fact, I think criticisms of the American government are the most productive when they come from a celebration of the American people, at least within America.

And that's what 4th of July is about, or at least how I've always celebrated it. It's about our community, not about our government. Patriotism, a love of your fellow man, is not the same as nationalism: I think they're antithetical.

 

[SomeRandom]

Maybe, maybe not. There are plenty of things I admire about American culture. But they are rather “further right” than a lot of Europe seems to be. Which is kind of ironic, if you think about it.

 

[February-Saturday]

Maybe, maybe not. There are plenty of things I admire about American culture. But they are rather “further right” than a lot of Europe seems to be. Which is kind of ironic, if you think about it.

I think there's fertile ground for the left in American culture, despite the heavy traditionalist impact made by having our pop culture and mass media owned by old money. America is steeply stacked in individualism, to a relative extreme when compared to other countries, and the popular image of that tends to be more Randian or strawman Nietzschean.

The reason why our media was so afraid of a movie like Joker is because it portrays an anti-traditionalist radical individualism that sort of undermines that illusion our benevolent corporate overlords are so keen on casting over anyone they can. Individualist leftism is on the rise.

The issue is that our left-leaning parties are trying to work against our individualist foundations and trying to repackage Eastern collectivism, which relegates them mainly to counter-cultural movements and creates an uphill battle that doesn't have to be so complicated.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The UK also got over their segregationist crap sooner, and the "bigger than Jesus" wouldn't have been a thing, like it wasn't a thing there.
Ive been telling them they should reclaim the colonies and enforce proper, civil law on the savages.

Can you be a little more specific with which colonies you want them to reclaim? We're fine here.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think there's fertile ground for the left in American culture, despite the heavy traditionalist impact made by having our pop culture and mass media owned by old money. America is steeply stacked in individualism, to a relative extreme when compared to other countries, and the popular image of that tends to be more Randian or strawman Nietzschean.

The reason why our media was so afraid of a movie like Joker is because it portrays an anti-traditionalist radical individualism that sort of undermines that illusion our benevolent corporate overlords are so keen on casting over anyone they can. Individualist leftism is on the rise.

The issue is that our left-leaning parties are trying to work against our individualist foundations and trying to repackage Eastern collectivism, which relegates them mainly to counter-cultural movements and creates an uphill battle that doesn't have to be so complicated.

Interesting. Do you think the hypercapitalist structure hinders such battles more needlessly? I mean, I live in a capitalist society, but so many “socialist” ideas are just accepted here as well. Whereas it seems like such concepts are often met with incredulous reactions by some Americans. But that’s just my perception.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

So did the early independence and associated wars actually achieve? Further, slavery would have been eradicated earlier and native Americans would have gotten better treaties with the British without independence than they got with the expansionist colonies.

I read the declaration today, and I wasn't aware of this, but they slur the poor Native Americans right in that document. I would not like to read some of those line if I was a Native American

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It's about celebrating American culture, Enlightenment values, and the people who live here.

It's a great time to talk about how to better bring liberty and justice to all under the nation,

Well, there's the saying that 'freedom isn't free,' but it clearly isn't easy to properly be free. In America, it seems to have had a centuries long interpretation that you should impinge on the rights of others, since apparently that is one way to expand personal freedom. As to Enlightenment values, well didn't some the most hardcore Christians come here back in the 1600's? For them, it was surely about taking the cultural epistemology back into the medieval past. Freedom to them, was probably Paul's freedom: he had lines about making his flesh into a chain, so could somehow be spiritually freer

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The UK also got over their segregationist crap sooner, and the "bigger than Jesus" wouldn't have been a thing, like it wasn't a thing there.
Ive been telling them they should reclaim the colonies and enforce proper, civil law on the savages.

What is the early history on the so-called WASPS.. Or simply people with extreme religious views, if that other term doesn't fully fit it. Were they sent here in the 1600's because the uk didn't want them, or did mostly come of their own accord. I seem to remember reading something about how maybe they were undesirable and sent away, though maybe that's incorrect

 

[Secret Chief]

Can you be a little more specific with which colonies you want them to reclaim? We're fine here.

I'm thinking SW was being tongue-in-cheek. It's bad enough having American cultural imports without Australian too. Hopefully England will be sloughing off Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales within the next decade and finally we will be pure.

 

[Secret Chief]

What is the early history on the so-called WASPS.. Or simply people with extreme religious views, if that other term doesn't fully fit it. Were they sent here in the 1600's because the uk didn't want them, or did mostly come of their own accord. I seem to remember reading something about how maybe they were undesirable and sent away, though maybe that's incorrect

They were oppressed religious nutters who decided to escape said oppression.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm thinking SW was being tongue-in-cheek. It's bad enough having American cultural imports without Australian too. Hopefully England will be sloughing off Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales within the next decade and finally we will be pure.

Oh, don't worry...I was being tongue in cheek too.
Hopefully @Shadow Wolf knows that, but it gets hard to tell on the net!!

 

[Secret Chief]

Oh, don't worry...I was being tongue in cheek too.
Hopefully @Shadow Wolf knows that, but it gets hard to tell on the net!!

It is indeed. We need an irony emoticon.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It is indeed. We need an irony emoticon.

Another board I post on, we use green text to indicate not to take the post seriously.

 

[Curious George]

Canada is doing as well or better in terms of development. So did the early independence and associated wars actually achieve? Further, slavery would have been eradicated earlier and native Americans would have gotten better treaties with the British without independence than they got with the expansionist colonies. The civil war would have been avoided. Also was it not true that the independence was about avoiding taxes that sought to pay for the debts of the costly Anglo French wars that were actually fought to secure the colonies against French aggression?

So why is fourth of July a good day to celebrate? Isn't it another example where colonial expansionist ideas won over more moderate ideas of cohabitation? Did not America go on to conquer Indian territories afterwards and created a horrible system of exploitative slavery free from the constraints of British laws?

A different perspective than yours to consider:

The Case Against the Case Against the American Revolution

 

[Revoltingest]

Was united Great Britain a good thing?
Should they have fallen to the Vikings?
Were the Vikings a good thing?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can you be a little more specific with which colonies you want them to reclaim? We're fine here.

The ones screaming and demanding their "rights" to making others ill and killing them.

 

[February-Saturday]

Well, there's the saying that 'freedom isn't free,' but it clearly isn't easy to properly be free. In America, it seems to have had a centuries long interpretation that you should impinge on the rights of others, since apparently that is one way to expand personal freedom. As to Enlightenment values, well didn't some the most hardcore Christians come here back in the 1600's? For them, it was surely about taking the cultural epistemology back into the medieval past. Freedom to them, was probably Paul's freedom: he had lines about making his flesh into a chain, so could somehow be spiritually freer

Yes, and Kant was horribly racist, but deontological ethics is still valuable in the modern era despite that. If you follow American politics, the Enlightenment values stated in the constitution were necessary when battling segregation and slavery from a legal standpoint, so it's clear that not everyone agrees (or should agree) with the exceptions that were originally being made.

 

[February-Saturday]

Interesting. Do you think the hypercapitalist structure hinders such battles more needlessly? I mean, I live in a capitalist society, but so many “socialist” ideas are just accepted here as well. Whereas it seems like such concepts are often met with incredulous reactions by some Americans. But that’s just my perception.

I definitely do, but I'm a socialist and I feel like capitalism ends up being the answer to pretty much every societal ill in America. Nonetheless, yes, I think the rampant nepotism in higher classes are specifically at issue here. It's very easy to believe that it's the birthright of the strong to rule the weak when you're born into the upper echelons of society. Too many people here buy the empty promises that if they just work hard they're going to somehow climb the class ladder, even though study after study has shown that wealth here is almost entirely dependent on luck and privilege.

It's easy to get people to turn on their fellow Americans when you tell them that they're secretly superior and their worth is going to some day be recognized by the elite. Which I think is an almost amusing lack of self-awareness, because the old money absolutely hate the new money. Nonetheless, I do think the corporate oligarchy has a vested interest in keeping us right-wing, and they have been very successful in doing so.