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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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outhouse

Atheistically
http://www.inquisitr.com/2382300/th...-shake-the-foundations-of-islam-scholars-say/


Radiocarbon analysis carried out by experts at the University of Oxford dated the parchment on which the Koran text was written to the period between 568 A.D. and 645 A.D. with an estimated accuracy of 95.4 percent, according to a release by the University of Birmingham.

the dating of these manuscripts has proven to be highly problematic and controversial.

That is what non credible muslim apologist must be saying. You are to provide a link when sourcing and using someone else information!

It is neither problematic or controversial what part of 95.4% don't you understand????????
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@ Augustus
One may like to view the following:
"New Light on the History of the Quranic Text?"
headshot.jpg

Joseph E. B. Lumbard Become a fan

Assistant Professor of Arabic and Translation Studies, American University of Sharjah
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html
Regards
 
False. It follows the Abrahamic tradition almost in full.

No one states it is the only source, your reading into it and then defending it just like an apologist defends mythology.

As I said:

It contains aspects of the Bible but also aspects of non-cannonical Gospels, Midrashic teachings, non-scriptual Christian myth (Alexander romance, & sleepers of Ephasus) and Christian Church orders (Didascalia Apostolorum), etc.

Thus no credible scholar would make the statement "its source was the Bible", as it is so much more than that.

You are presenting an oversimplistic view.

Your not a scholar, it more then good enough for you.

But I am familiar with the scholarly literature. I doubt you have read a single scholarly article or book on the topic. If you have, which would you recommend?

So when you post in many threads talking about 'credible scholarship', 'academia' and such like you really mean 'outhouse's opinion based on wikipedia'.

Spoken like a muslim creationist.

You don't read the link did you, and have no idea who Stephen Shoemaker is. If you did you would realise how silly that point was :smile:

[great website btw, you can learn a lot there and get more familiar with actual scholarship]

It is only historical where historicity can be determined. It is not credible on its own, nor is it devoid of possible history.

But you have no credible knowledge or education in determining what is and is not historical, based on your own words.

Strange that I seem to know far more than you though. You boast of your academic training and sophistication yet never do anything beyond quoting wikipedia and misunderstanding any genuinely academic material that others post. You are also very, very credulous in a way that no trained historian would be.

You have not refuted this in any way.

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

#1 YES OR NO?????????


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

#2 YES OR NO????????? and then who do we know about?

So far I have quoted from Gerhard Bowering and Guillaume Dye (google them to find out who they are) saying that it is plausible but speculative and lacks evidence. This is the academic consensus on the topic. I have also explained why this is the case - it relies purely on the Sirah to be true, yet the Sirah is more theology than history.

So far, you have repeated it must be true because you are not familiar enough with scholarship to realise the whole range of alternatives being proposed.

As I keep asking you to recommend me some academic sources to read, I'll assume you have never read any and have zero credibility on this topic as you demonstrate with every post on the topic. You only have a superficial understanding of the one theory you are proposing

I'll also assume that your professed love of academic history is just a lie made up for rhetorical purposes as you, to use your favourite phrase are 'rejecting academia' at the moment.

If you want to start a thread discussing this topic with the proviso that everything must be referenced to an academic source I'll happily take up the task of displaying your lack of knowledge on the topic.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Thus no credible scholar would make the statement "its source was the Bible", as it is so much more than that.

You might have a problem with the English language.

Being more then the bible does not exclude it as the primary source.

Containing other theology from other places is NON SEQUITUR :facepalm:


But I am familiar with the scholarly literature.

You don't show it in any way. You seem familiar with apologetic rhetoric from where I stand.

So when you post in many threads talking about 'credible scholarship', 'academia' and such like you really mean 'outhouse's opinion based on wikipedia'.



What you fail to understand is I know the information it contains. Much of which states with all honesty where it sits academically speaking.

You fail severely because you don't have the knowledge to refute these simple innocent wiki articles based on scholars and professors work.

I also happen to know a few of the writers for wiki, that contribute in this area, that are friends.

Either you can or you cannot refute what I post, so far its a big fat cannot.



You have refused to answer a simple EASY yes or no question

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

#1 YES OR NO?????????


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

#2 YES OR NO????????? and then who do we know about?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
saying that it is plausible but speculative and lacks evidence

Of course it is speculative and of course there is no evidence :facepalm:

BUT YOU HAVE A CHOICE and the other is not plausible o_O

muhammad learned biblical traditions from his own family who was a priest

OR

An angel talked into his ear and had told him mythological legends were real, that the angel must have copied from the bible.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Who taught illiterate muhammad his biblical knowledge ?

a stranger?

an angel?


Well how does most people factually learn about religion ??

Their family teaches them religion. MOST people learn about religion from their own family. That is a fact.

JUST so happens muhammads cousin Waraka who was known to have a life long relationship with muhammad !!!!

And he was a heretical Christian priest known to pervert the bible in Aramaic!!!!!!

And what kind of book did Muhammad sell to the public at the end of his sword ? A plagiarized Arabic version of the bible, just like how ole cousin Waraka like to cook!



IM sorry dude, but a first grader can add up this math.
 
Being more then the bible does not exclude it as the primary source.

Was correcting your poor expression that distorted meaning. To talk of any one thing as the 'primary source' displays an ignorance of the topic.

You don't show it in any way. You seem familiar with apologetic rhetoric from where I stand.

I'm the only one who quotes actual scholarly articles, and you clearly don't know the scholars because you think they are apologists which is as wrong as you can be.

Which scholars do you respect in this field? Which sources have you actually read?

What you fail to understand is I know the information it contains. Much of which states with all honesty where it sits academically speaking.

No you don't. You apparently have no knowledge. Saying 'I've no need for actual academic research because I already know it all' is forum speak for 'I can't back up what I've said so better to bluff it out than admit I'm a fantasist'

In a few days, I'm going to start a thread full of resources on early Islam for anyone who is interested, feel free to contribute your favourite articles. What are they?


I also happen to know a few of the writers for wiki, that contribute in this area, that are friends.

Either you can or you cannot refute what I post, so far its a big fat cannot.

Marvellous. Having friends who write for wiki is a substitute for knowledge.

As for 'refute', as I said many posts ago supported by actual scholarly material "The trouble is that there is simply no way to substantiate or disprove such suppositions, which are speculative and/or circular – the putative evidence is too shaky and meagre indeed to allow any conclusion." G. Dye - Jewish Christianity, the Qur’ān, and Early Islam

Clear enough?

You have refused to answer a simple EASY yes or no question

The questions are flawed as they don't cover the range of possibilities, which you would be aware of if you knew the material.

The answer for both is "yes, but.."

As regards Q2 within you paradigm, how do you explain that the audience is assumed to be very familiar with scripture?

Which scholars are you basing your argument on btw, I'd like to read their argumentation and sources.
 
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BUT YOU HAVE A CHOICE and the other is not plausible o_O

muhammad learned biblical traditions from his own family who was a priest

OR

An angel talked into his ear and had told him mythological legends were real, that the angel must have copied from the bible.

Do you believe that these are the only 2 potential options? If not, why keep presenting it as either/or?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854and illustrated further in #2910, #2962.
Not only the camel but a sort of a donkey was also incidentally mentioned, that was to appear at End of Days or the time of truthful Jesus' Second Coming in Hadith of truthful Muhammad, and one would be certainly interested knowing about it, I must say :
"Modes of travel on land, sea and air are all described without exception in a manner that fully endorses the interpretation of many a Quranic verse which we have presented earlier. Even the issue of the movement of mountains is explained so that the memory of the relevant verses is effortlessly resurrected. The Holy Prophet'ssa elaboration of the anti-Christ and the unique donkey he would ride must have seemed extremely odd to the people of his time. It had to appear odd because despite the fact that he continually refers to that mount as a donkey, none of the known characteristics of a donkey are ascribed to that oddity. However all the modern modes of transport answer to this description perfectly."
Page: 606 "Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth" by Mirza Tahir Ahmad
pix.gif

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html
Regards
 

McBell

Unbound
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854and illustrated further in #2910, #2962.
Not only the camel but a sort of a donkey was also incidentally mentioned, that was to appear at End of Days or the time of truthful Jesus' Second Coming in Hadith of truthful Muhammad, and one would be certainly interested knowing about it, I must say :
"Modes of travel on land, sea and air are all described without exception in a manner that fully endorses the interpretation of many a Quranic verse which we have presented earlier. Even the issue of the movement of mountains is explained so that the memory of the relevant verses is effortlessly resurrected. The Holy Prophet'ssa elaboration of the anti-Christ and the unique donkey he would ride must have seemed extremely odd to the people of his time. It had to appear odd because despite the fact that he continually refers to that mount as a donkey, none of the known characteristics of a donkey are ascribed to that oddity. However all the modern modes of transport answer to this description perfectly."
Page: 606 "Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth" by Mirza Tahir Ahmad
pix.gif

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_6_section_2.html
Regards
Fortunately for you, you have no credibility left for it to take a hit....
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Comparison fallacy. Camels and cars are modes of transportation. However you are claiming a reference to specific form of transportation, camels, is also talking about a different specific be it cars or whatever you inject into your rhetoric. It is also a generalization fallacy be claiming a specific mode of transportation, camels, refers to all modes which are not even mentioned in the Quran and Ahadith.

Treasure being found is nothing new nor needs prophecy. People hide their valuables in a number of ways. Archaeology is not just about buried objects since a number of objects are not buried at all but exist on the current top soil they were constructed upon. Also you verse mentions graves which is a specific. Yet many artifacts are not found in any graves. Your prophecy has nothing to do with archaeology it is post hoc rationalization.

The rest of your articles does the same. Changing interpretations to fit moderns time yet all are out of context when you read the whole chapter. Remember that context you mention a lot? Take your own advice.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Do you believe that these are the only 2 potential options? If not, why keep presenting it as either/or?

So you will not offer another explanation?


Where did Muhammad learn his bible?

Did Muhammad write all the koran or collect it from other Christians?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Let me tell you something.

Its not a matter of "IF" Waraka taught heretical scripture to muhammad, its a matter of HOW much.
 
So you will not offer another explanation?

To quote Outhouse: "what you fail to realise is that I am already familiar with the sources"

Either that was a lie or you don't need me to answer your question.

Its not a matter of "IF" Waraka taught heretical scripture to muhammad, its a matter of HOW much.

Let's make a deal, you bring one academic source to the table, and we'll continue this discussion.

Otherwise it's just you saying "I'm right because I say I'm right and if I repeat it enough then it will become true." That's just a waste of time.

Just one source. You don't even need two.

Should be no problem for a well read man such as yourself.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Where did muhammad learn the biblical traditions?

Where did illiterate muhammad learn to write it in Arabic, or who did it for him?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Like a broken record he just bounces back and back and back and back and back...


Though the most funny part of this Thread is the silent switch from "peaceful spread of Islam in country X" to "peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in country X".

But I am still not sure if the User in question actually believes that he fooled everyone.



PS: For the younger ones who don't know what a record is, this is a record.
45rpm.jpg


You put it into your Walkman.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Like a broken record he just bounces back and back and back and back and back...
Though the most funny part of this Thread is the silent switch from "peaceful spread of Islam in country X" to "peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in country X".
But I am still not sure if the User in question actually believes that he fooled everyone.
PS: For the younger ones who don't know what a record is, this is a record.
45rpm.jpg


You put it into your Walkman.
I was just missing you friend Flankerl!
If one is "back and back" one has come to the same point or in other words one is face to face again. Am I right? Please
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Like a broken record he just bounces back and back and back and back and back...
Though the most funny part of this Thread is the silent switch from "peaceful spread of Islam in country X" to "peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in country X".
But I am still not sure if the User in question actually believes that he fooled everyone.
PS: For the younger ones who don't know what a record is, this is a record.
45rpm.jpg


You put it into your Walkman.
Dear friend Flankerl!
These records are now obsolete. They were called gramophone records:


One may see the gramophone machine playing a record in olden times.
Regards
 
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