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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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outhouse

Atheistically
the wikipedia article references actually point to cambridge ( not me :D ) and columbia university texts when it makes these claims, can you point me to more accurate and reliable sources?

All his articles say we don't know, and offer little information.


He also refuses to discuss these topics in a context that is not worded how he wants the information to be worded.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
largely based on the Muslim Sirah which is not widely acknowledged as being particularly accurate by historians

Not really the case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

Many, but not all, scholars accept the accuracy of these biographies, though their accuracy is unascertainable


Here like studies with Jesus historicity, individual specific accounts hold more credibility then others. It is not academic to brush of everything under this umbrella you create.
 
Not really the case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

Many, but not all, scholars accept the accuracy of these biographies, though their accuracy is unascertainable


Here like studies with Jesus historicity, individual specific accounts hold more credibility then others. It is not academic to brush of everything under this umbrella you create.

By your own acknowledgement, you have never read anything on this subject beyond wikipedia and a few non-academic websites. I'm not sure why you consider yourself credible on the topic.

Western Islamicists generally don't consider them to be particularly accurate as they contain stories about flying donkeys and splitting the moon along with numerous anachronisms and exegetic constructs. That doesn't mean they contain no accurate information, or potentially even a good amount of accurate information.

The general Western academic consensus though is that the Sirah is not particularly accurate.

Which scholars do you consider insightful on the topic to support your perspective?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Here like studies with Jesus historicity, individual specific accounts hold more credibility then others. It is not academic to brush of everything under this umbrella you create.
 
Here like studies with Jesus historicity, individual specific accounts hold more credibility then others. It is not academic to brush of everything under this umbrella you create.

You understand that 'not acknowledged as being particularly accurate' is different from 'considered to have no value'.

But again, as someone who acknowledges they have never read anything academic on the subject, why should anyone really consider you views on 'academia' to carry any weight whatsoever.

You like your 'rhetorical prose'. You'll understand ethos then, and why you are deficient in this regard.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?
No.
For example:
Spread of Islam in Chile: [2]

The statistics for Islam in Chile estimate a total Muslim population of approximately 4,000, representing less than 0.1% of the population.[1] There are a number of Islamic organizations in Chile, including the "Muslim Society of Chile and As-Salam Mosque" (Spanish: Sociedad Musulmana de Chile y Mezquita As-Salam) in Santiago, Chile, "Bilal Mosque"(Mezquita Bilal) in Iquique, and the "Mohammed VI Cultural Center" (Centro Cultural Mohammed VI) in Coquimbo, the Community Islam Sunni Chile (Comunidad Islam Sunni Chile) and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Chile, which was established in 2011,[2]
History[edit]
In 1988, the construction of the mosque of Santiago named Mezquita As-Salam was initiated by Sheikh Taufiq Rumie', who had led the Muslim community for more than sixty years. The mosque was finished in 1989 and was inaugurated by a prince of Malaysia in 1996, and it was reported that by end of the 1980s, some indigenous Chileans had also converted to Islam, with numbers increasing after the completion of the mosque. Muslim Chilean population was increased by the presence of foreign trade and investment from Muslim countries. Many Malaysian businessmen and their families settled Chile after the inauguration of the mosque by a Malaysian prince. Due to the external interference, and especially to the strengthening of Shia Islam by part of the Iranian help in 1996, they inaugurated Centro de Cultura Islámica, in Las Condes, Santiago, where they consolidated a Shi'ite Muslim community who mostly arrived in Chile in the 19th century. Most Shi'ite Muslim Chileans are of Iranian blood, they may still speak Persian and/or other Iranian language, aside from Arabic and Spanish. In 1997, Pakistani retailers purchased land for the construction of the Bilal Mosque and madrasa in Iquique, which was completed in 1999. Following the death of Sheikh Taufiq Rumie' in 1998, Usama Abu Gazaleh was elected Imam of the mosque following the passing of Taufiq Rumie'.
Infrastructure[edit]

Through the 1970s and ‘80s, there were no religious leaders or centers for praying. Muslims who maintained the faith met in the residence of Taufik Rumie’ Dalu, a trader of Syrian origin. In 1990 the construction of the Al-Salam Mosque began, the first in the country. In 1995 another mosque was inaugurated in Temuco, and 1998 a new one in Iquique. Sources of the Islamic community indicate that at the moment, in Chile, there are 3,000 Muslims.[citation needed] Many of those are Chileans[citation needed] who, as a result of their conversion, have even changed their names. In spite of the small number of believers, they are not a homogenous community. The majority are Sunni, and the rest are Shiites, Sufi groups have also arisen.

Today[edit]
Since the September the 11th Attacks, there has been a minor, initial backlash against the Muslim community, as part of wider trend of suspicion towards Muslims in non-Muslim countries, although it is believed that the Muslim community as a whole, has remained well-integrated in broader Chilean society.
There are a number of organizations founded by the Muslim community in Chile, including:
  • Asociación Islámica de Chile (Islamic Association of Chile)
  • Centro de Cultura y Beneficencia Islámico
  • Centro Chileno Islámico de Cultura de Puerto Montt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Chile
chile2.jpg

Al-Salam Mosque in Santiago, Chile

Muslim Women in Chile

chile3.jpg


In front of Bilal Mosque Iquique, Chile

Muslim women pray at the mosque and in their houses. Chileans converted to Islam describe how they live as Muslims in a country which is dominantly Catholic, and how they are perceived. The attack of 11 September generated insults and practical jokes against them.

Karima Alberto, a 35-year-old housewife married to a Syrian merchant, has two children. She met her husband in his store. “He was the reason I converted to Islam, he told me marvelous things about Islam so I began to go to the mosque and learned more about Islam. It was like self-discovery,” she says.

Karima says that some people started treating them differently because of the 11 September attack. Although she is yearning to go to Makkah, she has already met her husband’s relatives in Damascus. “It was not difficult to stop eating pork or drink alcohol. It’s God’s will, and it’s stated in the Qur’an. Although some people think it’s a big sacrifice, I don’t look at it that way at all. Islam has given me a new vision.”

Carla Olivari, an 18-year-old student in a mixed school, says, “Now I do not feel pressured to drink alcohol at parties or to lose my virginity.”

At the age of 16, she used to pass by the mosque until one day she decided to enter. She left the mosque as a Muslim. “I feel that Allah chose me.” Her parents, who are Catholic, did not oppose, but her brother did. “When he sees me praying in my room, he calls me a lunatic.” However, she not only fasts during Ramadan, but on other days as well. “Above all, I pray for the victims in Palestine and Iraq.”
Carla wants to marry a Muslim. “My husband has to be a Muslim. I want my children to grow up in a Muslim family that teaches them important family values. Then I will get veiled permanently, not like now, when I only use it in the mosque.”
Habiba Abdullah, 40 years old, is a doctor at Roberto Del Río Hospital. She emphasizes that she carries the surname of her father, “Because Islam permits us to conserve our surname and not to be Mrs. Somebody.”
A member of a family of six brothers, she has a single son who is 18 years old. All her family is Muslim. “I was born a Muslim, and I’m proud of it. I remember my father taking us every weekend to the mosque. We would learn the Qur’an, and we would study Arabic. Although it was difficult when I first wore my veil at work, but little by little people started accepting me. Now people are not very surprised to see me with veil.”
Still, these women are a minority in Chile. “There are always people coming to the mosque out of curiosity,” states Imam Sami Elmushtawi. “Nevertheless, it is very satisfactory when I see their faces after leaving the mosque, or when they return again. Some people come to learn Arabic, and some come to learn more about Islam. But definitely it gives me greater joy that the Muslim community is increasing in Chile.”
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/muslimschile.htm

Country/Region: Chile
Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1]:4,000
Muslim percentage (%) of total population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1
Percentage (%) of World Muslim population 2010 Pew Report[1] :< 0.1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Chile . Do you see any?
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards
 
That is not honest, you are not allowed to state things I have never said

I said acknowledged, not said. You have clearly acknowledged it with your refusal to answer 2 simple question you have been asked 20 times.

once again:

1. Name a scholar you find insightful
2. Name some articles or books that you like


(You also 1. Mistook critical scholarship for apologetics 2. Were unaware of the terms 'Islamic studies' and 'Islamicist' 3. Didn't recognise the names of some of the most famous scholars in field (Reynolds, Donner, Wansbrough, Shoemaker, etc.) 4. dismissed the entire field of critical Quranic studies as 'worthless' 5. Stated your Waraqa theory was a certainty 6. Only ever quote wikipedia and dictionaries 7. Dismiss the views of certain scholars as 'worthless' then cite them to support your views if they appear in wikipedia [without realising what you just did] 8. Misunderstand any scholarly material presented to you 9. Managed to mistake a book title in a list of references for biographical information about the book's author)

If you want to comment about me to other posters I don't mind, it's just that I think it is correct to highlight the clear fact that you haven't actually ever read anything academic on this subject. When you publicly dismiss the value of sources that you haven't read, it is fair game to point this out lest others mistake your bluster for knowledge.

Call it a public service :)
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I said acknowledged, not said. You have clearly acknowledged it with your refusal to answer 2 simple question you have been asked 20 times.
once again:
1. Name a scholar you find insightful
2. Name some articles or books that you like
(You also 1. Mistook critical scholarship for apologetics 2. Were unaware of the terms 'Islamic studies' and 'Islamicist' 3. Didn't recognise the names of some of the most famous scholars in field (Reynolds, Donner, Wansbrough, Shoemaker, etc.) 4. dismissed the entire field of critical Quranic studies as 'worthless' 5. Stated your Waraqa theory was a certainty 6. Only ever quote wikipedia and dictionaries 7. Dismiss the views of certain scholars as 'worthless' then cite them to support your views if they appear in wikipedia [without realising what you just did] 8. Misunderstand any scholarly material presented to you 9. Managed to mistake a book title in a list of references for biographical information about the book's author)
If you want to comment about me to other posters I don't mind, it's just that I think it is correct to highlight the clear fact that you haven't actually ever read anything academic on this subject. When you publicly dismiss the value of sources that you haven't read, it is fair game to point this out lest others mistake your bluster for knowledge.
Call it a public service :)
I like your stand-point that I have coloured in magenta above.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
you say muhammad was a defender. To be a defender there must be someone attacking you.
but actually muhammad was the one who was trying to change the society, that was pagan till that point, so he was an attacker in that sense, cause he was challenging and trying to turn upside down the establishment that was already there and that has been there probably for thousands of years..
so you say muhammad was defending himself while in fact those pagan people were the one defending themselves from muhammad.
Your information about Muhammad is incorrect.
After being appointed a Prophet/Messenger of G-d, Muhammad lived for 13 years in Mecca. Please quote one instance repeat ONE, repeat ONE instance when he physically attacked anybody of the Meccans or any of his followers attacked or physically harmed any body.
Regards
 

outhouse

Atheistically
WHERE did Muhammad collect this text that would later become the koran?

When did the text become so important, it must be gathered up?

Who taught him?
 

Corthos

Great Old One
I can't help but think about the Persians (the Zoroastrians, more specifically) and what happened to them. From what I understand, there's a reason they are holed up high in the mountains, or fled to India...
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What happened to Gabriel?
You want to know about Gabriel mentioned in Quran. I won't disappoint you here:
[2:98]Say: ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel — for he it is who has caused it to descend on thy heart by the command of Allah, which fulfils that which precedes it, and is a guidance and glad tidings to the believers —
[2:99]‘Whoever is an enemy to Allah, and His angels, and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then surely, Allah is an enemy tosuchdisbelievers.’
[2:100]And surely, We have sent down to thee manifest Signs, and no one disbelieves in them but the disobedient.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=97
Regards
 

McBell

Unbound
You want to know about Gabriel mentioned in Quran. I won't disappoint you here:
[2:98]Say: ‘Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel — for he it is who has caused it to descend on thy heart by the command of Allah, which fulfils that which precedes it, and is a guidance and glad tidings to the believers —
[2:99]‘Whoever is an enemy to Allah, and His angels, and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then surely, Allah is an enemy tosuchdisbelievers.’
[2:100]And surely, We have sent down to thee manifest Signs, and no one disbelieves in them but the disobedient.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=97
Regards
ouch.
So you do not even know the history of your own religion?
Well, that explains your mistakes
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
ouch.
So you do not even know the history of your own religion?
Well, that explains your mistakes
Well, I never said that I don't make mistake. I am human and to err is with the humans. It is for this that I don't value history unless it is supported by Quran or the history supports Quran. Right? Please
Regards

By the way what mistake did I make? Please
Regards
 

McBell

Unbound
Well, I never said that I don't make mistake. I am human and to err is with the humans. It is for this that I don't value history unless it is supported by Quran or the history supports Quran. Right? Please
Regards

By the way what mistake did I make? Please
Regards
Islam was spread by the sword is the most glaring fact you deny.
 
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