Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Oh I dunno. Maybe people saying, "Jesus died for our sins" perhaps?
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Was it any use for jesus to die for sins?
- Thread starter Remté
- Start date
Remté
Active Member
I thought that was the solution?
Excellent question.
Can someone tell us what was different after the crucifixion?
Or was it all still promises, promises?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
What are the promises and who made them?
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Sin is connected to law. Sin results when you disobey the law. If you disobey the law you are punished for your sin. On the other hand, sin in not imputed, where there is no law.
For example, it is not a sin to take a walk in the park on a nice summer day. If the local officials, one day, made a law that said, "no trespassing in the park during the summer", now a sin will appear if you take that walk. The behavior is the same. The law decides if it becomes a sin or not. If they repeal the no trespassing law, the following year, now there is no sin, if you take that walk. The power of sin is the law.
Forgiveness of sins implies that law, in general, has been repealed, because the state called forgiveness of sins brings one to the same place as though there is no law. If all law was repealed, there would be no defined sins. Forgiveness of sin is like one being exempt from the law, by being exempt for the attached sins. If the law said no trespassing, and you did this, but the judge; uncle Bob, forgives you, it like there is no law or sin for you.
In bible tradition, the tree of knowledge of good and evil is occupied by Satan. Knowledge of good and evil is law, since law differentiates and teaches us the difference between good and evil behavior. Satan in this tree; orientation, tells us this is not an optimized orientation. One big problem with law is humans make too many laws, often for their own personal and political gain. Some would like make it a sin, if a cow has gas. The farmer will be sinner for cows being natural if a law passes.
Another main reason law is not optimized is connected to the concept of original sin. Law is not made for the righteous person. Rather law is made for the sinners. Once a sinner finds a new angle to steal or abusive, a new law will appear to regulate the new behavior. Although this new law covers a loophole in the law, the new law requires everyone conform, as though everyone one is a potential sinner.
In other words, even if you would never do this, due to deep moral and ethical restraint, by accepting group obedience to that new law, you sort of admit you could and would do it. Accepting conformity to that law, even if you would not violate it, is the nature of original sin. Everyone being forced to obey the law, implies that culture assumes we all are have the potential to do all the sins defined by the entire law. Law, and group conformity, assumes the potential for sin is a default state for all humans; original sin. If not, certain people would be exempt, based on proven righteousness.
When Jesus forgives sins, everyone who was assumed to be sinners, by default, due to the nature of conformity to law, can now be treated with the dignity of righteous people, since sin is not imputed when law is made void. Forgiveness of sin, voids the power of the law; sin.
An ideal law system would exempt people, from the majority of law, if they have a proven history of good behavior. We already do this to some extent. Small children are not under all the laws of adults, until they become 18. Children are not considered full original sinners, until they become 18. We assume a level of innocence to many sins. When one is symbolically born again, and we receive forgiveness of sins, we go back to a symbolic state similar to early childhood, where sin is less imputed, due to less forced compliance to all adult law; original sin.
One extra consideration is, even if you can accept forgiveness of sins, the long term impact of law on the unconscious mind, can still cause a state called guilt. Guilt can appear even without sin. For example, you wrong a friend, but that friend forgives you. Your sin has been forgiven. However, one can still feel guilty, even though that sin is not imputed, due to the forgiveness.
It was very difficult for humans, conditioned to original sin, to give up law since guilt would often remain. One is forgiven, but they cannot forgive themselves. There is something that is called the sacrifice for guilty; future. The sacrifice for sins is not complete, without the sacrifice for guilt. This is why law continues to be restored.
I want to point out that the most qualified person to answer your question, so far in the thread, I think is Augustus. I'm not sure what they mean by what they are saying, but they are probably the most widely read and deeply versed in the topic. I think everybody is contributing something, but if you are looking for a point champion that's one of our scholarly level posters who regularly demonstrates a deep commitment to study.
One name for them is 'pie in the sky when you die'.
Who made that promise? Jesus (not least John's Jesus) and the Christians to this day.
And in return, I ask you: assuming there was an historical Jesus, what was different in reality after his death?
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My understanding of this is that it has changed over the centuries.
What, in your opinion, makes sense of sacrifice? It may not be the same thing that makes sense to Jesus or to Peter. They may not believe sacrifice covers sins such as murder, theft, adultery, cruelty, neglect, hate etc. They may only believe that sacrifice covers those specific sins laid out in descriptions of sacrifices in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Those cover unintentional sins, ritualistic mistakes and other errors such as being unfortunately related to a crime that you are unknowingly a part of. In that case, Jesus death is for the sin of being either a human or for being a gentile or both. To me that seems to be the case if we take into consideration the kinds of things the Jesus followers do. They break traditions, eat meats such as bacon (unlike Muslims and Jews and now Bahai's too); and they may eat food sacrificed to idols, don't have to celebrate holidays if they don't want to and so forth. They're still not allowed to murder, steal, commit adultery and so forth. Anything sin provided for under sacrifices in the Pentateuch is Ok for them, but anything not provided for is not.
What, in your opinion, makes sense of sacrifice? It may not be the same thing that makes sense to Jesus or to Peter. They may not believe sacrifice covers sins such as murder, theft, adultery, cruelty, neglect, hate etc. They may only believe that sacrifice covers those specific sins laid out in descriptions of sacrifices in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Those cover unintentional sins, ritualistic mistakes and other errors such as being unfortunately related to a crime that you are unknowingly a part of. In that case, Jesus death is for the sin of being either a human or for being a gentile or both. To me that seems to be the case if we take into consideration the kinds of things the Jesus followers do. They break traditions, eat meats such as bacon (unlike Muslims and Jews and now Bahai's too); and they may eat food sacrificed to idols, don't have to celebrate holidays if they don't want to and so forth. They're still not allowed to murder, steal, commit adultery and so forth. Anything sin provided for under sacrifices in the Pentateuch is Ok for them, but anything not provided for is not.
PureX
Veteran Member
Was it any use for Martin Luther King to die for our racism? I think so. I think his murder probably helped a significant number of people in the world to realize how severe the social sickness of racism is, and helped them to choose to drive it from their own hearts and minds, and from their social practices and public institutions.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Faults, mistakes, failures are not sins til they become willfully done. Punishing an innocent for the guilty does not excuse the guilty. And holding people accountable to an imaginary saviour is a sin. Romanticizing an imaginary sacrifice does not make it real. A sin is willful wrong doing. Unfortunately the believer is honest in their delusion that sins magically dissappear with a superstitious sacrifice and once more expect everybody to be accountable to their phantoms. Or else!
The worldview that everybody is a sinner incapable of doing good flies in the face of evidence to the contrary. Good people do good work out there, and by necessity have to charge fair value for it.
Personally i would only add that charity is a virtue, and a personal responsibility to create a quality of life for others within personal means. It only stands to reason that if i make others lives deservedly better then my own life is enhanced.
The day everyone stands on their own merits, and not in some childish fantasy is the day personal responsibility will improve life for all.
mercy , and charity are no less virtues then any other. But is it really merciful, and charitable to hold all people accountable to something that can easily be found out not to exist.
The worldview that everybody is a sinner incapable of doing good flies in the face of evidence to the contrary. Good people do good work out there, and by necessity have to charge fair value for it.
Personally i would only add that charity is a virtue, and a personal responsibility to create a quality of life for others within personal means. It only stands to reason that if i make others lives deservedly better then my own life is enhanced.
The day everyone stands on their own merits, and not in some childish fantasy is the day personal responsibility will improve life for all.
mercy , and charity are no less virtues then any other. But is it really merciful, and charitable to hold all people accountable to something that can easily be found out not to exist.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
I really see the crucifixion of Jesus as an evolving theology that has been interpreted and re-interpreted
sealchan
Well-Known Member
Its shows that God gets it that we cannot be perfect and that guilt should not get in the way of sincere effort.
WalterTrull
Godfella
The wine dude, the wine. And, if you can chew it, the bread.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Sin is the solution? I take sin was the condition that Christians go on about.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Satan does come across as the cool laid back easy going character while God goes about all the sadistic dirty work.
I agree. I believe the Atonement Doctrine was one of the early errors of the Church. It gave the Church more power as it could claim the one path to salvation.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So, is Christ alive or dead then?
WalterTrull
Godfella
Pretty sure you mean Jesus of Nazareth. Boy, I wish I knew. The Christ however is a forever thing.