Was it any use for jesus to die for sins?

[JJ50]

So, is Christ alive or dead then?

There is no evidence he is still alive.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Satan gets blamed for all badness, yet the Biblical god is the epitome of evil if the deeds attributed to it had any veracity.

Finally! Someone willing to actually tell it like it is,

 

[syo]

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

Jesus had to die because he became human and humans die. humans die because they sin. they ate the forbidden fruit.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Pretty sure you mean Jesus of Nazareth. Boy, I wish I knew. The Christ however is a forever thing.

I figure if Christ is regarded as alive by Christians, they cant really say there was a sacrifice. It's a permanent loss that makes something a sacrifice. Something that will never be seen again.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Jesus had to die because he became human and humans die. humans die because they sin. they ate the forbidden fruit.

So, you believe that if Adam had NOT eaten that fruit, he would have lived 'forever'?
Besides, what exactly WAS the point and purpose of Jesus "dying" if he didn't REALLY die and is now at God's right hand, as if nothing had EVER happened? Simply a lot of "theatrics and superfluous melodrama?

 

[syo]

So, you believe that if Adam had NOT eaten that fruit, he would have lived 'forever'?

yup.

 

[syo]

Besides, what exactly WAS the point and purpose of Jesus "dying" if he didn't REALLY die and is now at God's right hand, as if nothing had EVER happened?

Jesus went to heaven as human. It means humans will join the Father.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

yup.

So therefore, given enough time, human beings would eventually have overpopulated the planet, if nobody ever died...but simply because Adam disobeyed and munched that fruit, that will not happen? Seriously?

 

[syo]

So therefore, given enough time, human beings would eventually have overpopulated the planet, if nobody ever died...but simply because Adam disobeyed and munched that fruit, that will not happen? Seriously?

yup

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I figure if Christ is regarded as alive by Christians, they cant really say there was a sacrifice. It's a permanent loss that makes something a sacrifice. Something that will never be seen again.

Absolutely! My thoughts exactly. No sacrifice if all is at it was....a minor inconvenience maybe, but a SACRIFICE?.....nope!

 

[WalterTrull]

I figure if Christ is regarded as alive by Christians, they cant really say there was a sacrifice. It's a permanent loss that makes something a sacrifice. Something that will never be seen again.

Uhm.. Christ, meaning anointed or chosen is a forever aspect of God. Jesus was a man who was anointed/chosen by God to bring the bread and wine. He did this through his teaching, healing, and ultimately his death and resurrection. That may not seem like a sacrifice to you, but it sort of seems like it to me.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Uhm.. Christ, meaning anointed or chosen is a forever aspect of God. Jesus was a man who was anointed/chosen by God to bring the bread and wine. He did this through his teaching, healing, and ultimately his death and resurrection. That may not seem like a sacrifice to you, but it sort of seems like it to me.

I would guess therefore the we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. And btw "christ" is also translated as "Messiah"....no matter though, you believe Jesus was sacrificed...where I believe he was executed for being perceived as a threat to the power of the local priests, and THEY conspired to have him done away with. Christians believe Jesus came BACK to life and is now BACK up in heaven to be at God's side.....therefore no ACTUAL sacrifice ever took place. If Jesus was STILL in the grave/tomb.....THAT would be a sacrifice.

 

[WalterTrull]

we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

I guess.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

Yes, personal responsibilities remains. We all have the freedom to act responsibly toward God.
By Adam breaking God's law, thus Adam unbalanced the Scale of Justice for us.
Since we can't stop sinning because of inherited imperfection from father Adam we can't redeem anyone.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, and because we can't stop is why we die.
Thus, we need someone without sin to re-balance the Scale of Justice for us.
This is why a sinless Jesus could ransom us out of sin and death.
So to speak, Adam put us in the Pawn Shop of Death, so we need someone from the outside who can pay over the asking price for our release from sin and death. Jesus is kind of like that ready cash to pay off the debt for us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would guess therefore the we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. And btw "christ" is also translated as "Messiah"....no matter though, you believe Jesus was sacrificed...where I believe he was executed for being perceived as a threat to the power of the local priests, and THEY conspired to have him done away with. Christians believe Jesus came BACK to life and is now BACK up in heaven to be at God's side.....therefore no ACTUAL sacrifice ever took place. If Jesus was STILL in the grave/tomb.....THAT would be a sacrifice.

Jesus sacrificed his perfect sinless human life for us. Hebrews 9:24 shows that God approved of Jesus.
If Jesus was still in the grave (Acts 2:27) then Jesus would be in the same boat, so to speak, as Adam.
A dead-in-the-ground Adam can't help us avoid sin with its bad consequence of death.
But a living resurrected sinless Jesus can resurrect us - Revelation 1:18.

 

[whirlingmerc]

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

Yes and no depending on what you mean the responsibility is for
Jesus resurrection shows 'the check cleared' making salvation possible and in many ways.

Before salvation of saving faith there is a monergism (one worker in salvation) who is Jesus
After salvation and the adoption and giving of the spirit, there is a dependent co laboring ( one main worker and one dependent worker) we depend on God for help in salvation in our sanctification
It is grace all the way and paid for by Jesus

So yes, responsibility maintained for judgement of sin. Someone will be judged either you or Jesus (regarding salvation)
So yes, responsibility is preserved after salvation and the adoption as sons and we will be judged for leaning on God, putting to death the deeds of the flesh with the Spirit's help (regarding fruit of faith and love and sanctification)
It's all be grace

No surprise since even Abraham became righteous by faith in the account
and then his very real salvation he already had was vindication by his works in the decades that followed

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does that have to do with jesus? Surely people were forgiven before jesus just as well?

Forgiven, but without Jesus even those who lived before Jesus could Not resurrect oneself or another - John 3:13
I say ' forgiven' because the asking price that sin pays is ' death' as per Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
Just as with Adam, there is NO post-mortem penalty, NO double jeopardy for the dead.
DEATH stamps the asking price of sin as 'Paid In Full'.

A governor can pardon a person so his ' crime' charges No longer stick.
So, Jesus can pardon a person so his ' sin ' charges No longer stick.
Thus, for the majority of mankind they can have a future happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
That physical resurrection takes place during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth.
This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
In other words, people who died before Jesus died are Not called to heaven but to be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus said at Matthew 5:5 in connection to Psalms 37:9-11.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So therefore, given enough time, human beings would eventually have overpopulated the planet, if nobody ever died...but simply because Adam disobeyed and munched that fruit, that will not happen? Seriously?

Ouch, I find a number of people think as the ^ above ^ but either forget or don't know Genesis says to ' fill ' the Earth.
Fill or populate the Earth. Not overfill nor over-populate, so reproduction was to cease when Earth was populated.
As to what God had in mind at that populated point in time remains to be seen, but remember there is a whole universe out there. Possibly Earth could also be considered as the first to have intelligent human population.
- Genesis 1:28 - Seriously !

 

[Cooky]

What is it supposed to change? Personal responsibility remains.

Fom my understanding, Jesus, being both fully God and Fully man, was forced to enter into hell, like every other human being... because he was a man. And because of original sin.

...Once he descended into it, he took many souls out of there with him and they ascended out of there, and the chains were broken.

I guess Jesus could have waited until he died a natural death, assuming he could die a natural death. By that seems less interesting and undevoted to his mission.

 

[Cooky]

I figure if Christ is regarded as alive by Christians, they cant really say there was a sacrifice. It's a permanent loss that makes something a sacrifice. Something that will never be seen again.

Would deceased be a better description? I mean, we have to call it something.