Was Muhammad a good man?

[1robin]

I think this discussion bears no fruit.

Unless it bore Islamic fruit on what basis would you have no claimed this.

For all those asking about Aishas age, there are different reports and what is logical to me is that she was older, in her teens, otherwise she would not be allowed to accompany Muhammad on expeditions.

The trouble I have with 1robin and others claiming to have studied Islamic literature is that they they consider all the Hadith to be in the same boat, lol Bukharis books have a section for weak narrations (which you qoute), and Ibn Ishaq's narrations (most of the copy pastes of christian websites) hold no weight, it is common knowledge among Muslims that he was a fabricator of Hadith.

Anyhow all these are subjective opinions whether good or bad, this is mine

IMO THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER..

Can you post a single statement I have ever made suggesting that all Hadith's are equal or valid. Despite the fact that the reliability of most hadith's vary depending on how convenient they are to Islam most of my sources are well accepted and not only hadiths but accepted Islamic historians, the Quran, and accepted biographers. I tell you what, remove any claim I made that comes from a source you have any reason (good or bad I do not care but actually real only) and just look at what is left in what I have claimed. I can do even better than that, I will make the same general claims but use only the Bible Quran to prove if you wish. My historical claims may be true of false but they were not subjective. The tactics or methods of most Islamic defenders seems IMO to be almost be the result of training of some sort. I know they are not but they are still almost universal and standardized. I will not bore you by listing them but they are inconsistent with historical, theological, and legal standards of every kind. For example I must have given 15 sources. You condemn 2 or 3 and ignore the rest.

 

[Monotheist 101]

The tactics or methods of most Islamic defenders seems IMO to be almost be the result of training of some sort.

We get trained in our cradles..at militant camps..lol

What you dont seem to understand is that I am not out to prove to you that Muhammad was good or bad, I dont care what you think of him or deduce from your one-sided research on him. Good for you.

I find it hard to have a discussion of any sort with you regarding Islam or Muhammad because you misrepresent facts and view your opinion to be infallible. You have already made up your mind. Good for you.

Acknowledge the validity of your opponent's viewpoint when possible. This helps your opponent feel understood and highlights commonalities between the two sides of an issue. A respectful debater engages and appreciates his opponent's position.

Read more: How to Have a Civil and Respectful Debate | eHow​

Thus I say this discussion bears no fruit, We all walk away with the same opinions we had started with..

I was digging up threads from a year ago, you have had your questions answered over and over, IMO your clutching at straws with the whole Muhammad was the anti-christ thing, I believe in the prophecies of the Dajjal/Anti-Christ, Muhammad is not him, the devil does not advise men to be honest, just and reject idols(IMO Christian worship of Christ is no different then idol-worship, atleast the hindus are honest about it). Or maybe for you he does..IMO if Muhammad was the deciever/devil that you try and make him out to be, 1.6 billion people would not accept his message, if he was an oppressor/pedophile no one would care for what he said. I find no logic in the reasoning behind Muhammad calling people to God and Good things whilst being the devil himself..why would the devil want us to believe in God or do good of any sort?

Would the devil say this..
‘Never let your enmity for anyone lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Always be just: that is closest to being God-fearing.’
(al-Ma’idah 5:8)

or


[Successful are the believers]…who are faithful to their trusts and to their promises.’
(al-Mu’minun 23:8)

or

‘And be true to every promise- for, verily you willl be called to account for every promise which you have made.’
(al-Isra 17: 34)

I am not an Islamic Scholar, upon studying the Quran I find that the Quran is full of lessons and stories, for both the Muslims of Muhammads times, their are instructions for them, specific to them and their situation, and there are lessons for mankind in general, The context of revelation is very important, much is to be understood by learning when and where the verses were revealed. I also realize what an enormous task studying the Quran and hadith in detail is and am skeptical in thinking that I will ever have enough time (Im in my early 20's) to learn enough to be considered knowledgeable in the field, there are too many views to look at and much to consider, I find it pathetic that some people on here use answeringislam.com and the linear one sided story presented by them and their like, their are tons of websites that bash Islam, I pity them for having a closed mind.

1robin I have heard your opinions, and of many more like you, I am not interested in believing without exploring the possibilities, I find that your claims of Muhammad being terrible only shed light at the ignorance regarding him.

Peace

 

[Sculelos]

We were not discussing books that are good to read but Holy books who's source is claimed to be God almighty. The Peloponnesian wars or Lee's lieutenants are very good books to read and are some of histories most accurate but would never be used by me a inspired resources on that basis.

I am certain it does provide history but on what basis do you claim it provides information about God? The God it reveals is irreconcilable with the Bible's God.

That is not true. His primary Biblical resource was his (uncle).

The Gospels of Thomas was only recently re-discovered and was not known during Muhammad's time.
It was discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in December 1945, in one of a group of books known as the Nag Hammadi library
Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is also a theological mystery and generally considered incompatible with the Bible and it's actual author unknown. The earliest references to it (and there are very few) list it among well known heresies even before Muhammad was born.

In what way is getting the truth about God WRONG the basis for salvation? Not only the all the historical evidence suggests what was in his heart was tyranny, murder, jealousy, wrath, deceit, lust and greed (though I am sure he had his good points). Those can be forgiven but not when you deny Christ died for those very sins. That is the most bizarre claim about salvation I have ever heard.

1. Christ said he died for our sins and faith in that is the basis for salvation.
2. Muhammad not only denied it but taught it was impossible and you claim that error is a basis for salvation.
I am speechless.

You seem to be all over the place here. Salvation is either grace or merit. It can't possibly be both. If grace then it is Christ's merits alone that save and those come through faith not through obedience. If by merit then approval comes through merit (perfect merit, as God is perfect) and Christ's actions are irrelevant. You can't choose both.

You do not become approved by fighting but by surrendering to what Christ did. Unlike virtually all other religion Christianity does not have a God we have to claw our way up to , but instead one who has reached down to us. We only need believe and be born again. Fighting only is relevant once we are born again and that only for temporal issues. We can't add to Christ's perfection by our own imperfect merits. We can't earn what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8-9

New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV - For it is by grace you have been saved, - Bible Gateway

The Bible as a book is from man, as a revelation it is from God. The Quran as a book and a revelation bears every indications of being from man. Which of Christ's words are lies. Which of Muhammad's non existent miracles or prophecies give any indication of his source?

I agree God knows us and we can't judge him. What is the purpose of pointing that out. We can and should judge any words said to come from that God however and Muhammad does not pass any of the tests normally associated with that. Prophecy, miracles (he literally refused this one), unknowable information (though I have heard a few good claims for this one), explanatory scope and power, multiple attestation, historical accuracy, internal consistency, etc.... Why do you think Islam primary flourishes only where it is mandated and regulated and Christianity has a significant presence in every single nation of Earth (the only faith that does)? Pick any one claim you have made and we can get very detailed. You seem to be under some misapprehensions.

1. The 66 books of the Bible plus the Ethiopian Enoch 1 are the only books I endorse as Scripture, however I will state that I've read part of the Koran and what I read seems to agree with Biblical scripture more often then not even though there are some obvious differences. When in doubt I'd say always trust the Bible over the Koran. However to me the Koran is historically accurate and does a good job at sorting through a ton of secular garbage.

Picking a random passage from the Koran states.
(I will say that their are 21 angels)

And after this judgement they will terrify and anger them, because they have
showed this to those who dwell on the earth. 2. And behold the names of those angels! and
these are their names: the first of them is Semjâzâ, the second Arestîqîfâ, the third Armên,
the fourth Kakabâêl, the fifth Turêl, the sixth, Rûmjâl, the seventh Dânêl, the eighth
Nûqaêl, the ninth Barâqêl, the tenth Azâzêl, the eleventh Armers, the twelfth Batarjâl, the
thirteenth Basasâêl, the fourteenth Anânêl, the fifteenth Turjâl, the sixteenth Simâpîsîêl, the
seventeenth Jetarêl, the eighteenth Tûmâêl, the nineteenth Tarêl, the twentieth Rûmâêl, the
twenty -first Izêzêêl.

"

SURA LXXIV (74) - The Enwrapped (Mecca - 55) (II - 21)

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

O Thou, enwrapped in thy mantle!
Arise and warn!
Thy Lord - magnify Him!
Thy raiment - purify it!
The abomination - flee it!
And bestow not favours that thou mayest receive again with increase;

And for thy Lord wait thou patiently.
For when there shall be a trump on the trumpet,
That shall be a distressful day,
74:10 A day, to the Infidels, devoid of ease.
Leave me alone to deal with him whom I have created,

And on whom I have bestowed vast riches,
And sons dwelling before him,
And for whom I have smoothed all things smoothly down; -

Yet desireth he that I shall add more!
But no! because to our signs he is a foe
I will lay grievous woes upon him.
For he plotted and he planned!
May he be cursed! How he planned!
74:20 Again, may be be cursed! How he planned!
Then looked he around him,
Then frowned and scowled,
Then turned his back and swelled with disdain,
And said, "This is merely magic that will be wrought;

It is merely the word of a mortal."
We will surely cast him in Hell-fire.
And who shall teach thee what Hell-fire is?
It leaveth nought, it spareth nought,
Blackening the skin.
74:30 Over it are nineteen angels.
None but angels have we made guardians of the fire: nor have we made

this to be their number but to perplex the unbelievers, and that they who

possess the Scriptures may be certain of the truth of the Koran, and that they

who believe may increase their faith;
And that they to whom the Scriptures have been given, and the

believers,may not doubt;
And that the infirm of heart and the unbelievers may say, What meaneth

God by this parable?
Thus God misleadeth whom He will, and whom He will doth He guide aright:

and none knoweth the armies of thy Lord but Himself: and this is no other than

a warning to mankind.
Nay, by the Moon!
By the Night when it retreateth!
By the Morn when it brighteneth!
Hell is one of the most grievous woes,
Fraught with warning toman,
74:40 To him among you who desireth to press forward, or to remain behind.

For its own works lieth every soul in pledge. But they of God's right

hand
In their gardens shall ask of the wicked; -
"What hath cast you into Hell-fire?"{
They will say, "We were not of those who prayed,
And we were not of those who fed the poor,
And we plunged into vain disputes with vain disputers,

And we rejected as a lie, the day of reckoning,
Till the certainty came upon us" -
And intercession of the interceders shall not avail them.

74:50 Then what hath come to them that they turn aside from the Warning

As if they affrighted ***** fleeing from a lion?
And every one of them would fain have open pages given to him out of

Heaven.
It shall not be. They fear not the life to come.
It shall not be. For this Koran is warning enough. And whoso will, it

warneth him.
But not unless God please, shall they be warned. Meet is He to be

feared. Meet is forgiveness in Him.

 

[1robin]

We get trained in our cradles..at militant camps..lol

Even though the more fundamental nations do train Muslims as early as they can get hold of them and label them Muslims at birth I was of course joking. I just meant it seemed as if you are trained in evasion tactics for arguments. Not that you actually are.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not out to prove to you that Muhammad was good or bad, I don't care what you think of him or deduce from your one-sided research on him. Good for you.

I am not interested in what your not here to do.

I find it hard to have a discussion of any sort with you regarding Islam or Muhammad because you misrepresent facts and view your opinion to be infallible. You have already made up your mind. Good for you.

1. I did not misrepresent anything. It could be wrong but evidence suggests otherwise but even if wrong it was not misrepresentation.
2. Even if I had misrepresented anything you do not have any way to know my intent.
3. I state for the 100th time that many of my sources are accepted Islamic sources. Unless your claiming Islam misrepresents history you can't claim I did.

Thus I say this discussion bears no fruit, We all walk away with the same opinions we had started with..

However one of us is wrong. The bulk of history suggests Islam's claims are in this case (or some are as many suggest Muhammad was violent and sinful). I am only required to give truth to the best of my capability. What is done with it is not my primary concern.

I was digging up threads from a year ago, you have had your questions answered over and over,

My primary claims are statements of history not questions. Things that did not work a year ago do not work any better when referenced.

IMO your clutching at straws with the whole Muhammad was the anti-christ thing, I believe in the prophecies of the Dajjal/Anti-Christ, Muhammad is not him, the devil does not advise men to be honest, just and reject idols

The anti-Christ case is certainly not as strong as the case for Muhammad not being a prophet or that the Quran is not from God. I do not claim he is the anti-Christ but as the Bible does that anyone who claims what he did is of the anti-Christ. Satan absolutely can tell the truth. He comes as an angel of light and even has spiritual power. Light means truth. He can use the truth and does so and is probably the most effective tactic there is. I would think the most effective tactic possible is for him to credit the Bible with authenticity but to strip it of any power to save (by denying what Christ did).

(IMO Christian worship of Christ is no different then idol-worship, at least the Hindus are honest about it).

What? Worshiping any image of Christ is idol worship but I do not get the rest of this.

Or maybe for you he does..IMO if Muhammad was the deciever/devil that you try and make him out to be, 1.6 billion people would not accept his message, if he was an oppressor/pedophile no one would care for what he said. I find no logic in the reasoning behind Muhammad calling people to God and Good things whilst being the devil himself..why would the devil want us to believe in God or do good of any sort?

Are you kidding? At no point have God's followers outnumbered Satan's. There are 2 billion Christian's, that leaves 4 billion people who are lost or if you are right there are 1.6 billion Muslim's leaving 4.4 billion lost souls. God's people are always a minority or remnant because it is like going uphill in a way, believing lies that tickle the ears is like going downhill. Pointing people at God while stripping them of the truth that enables them to reach him is the greatest trick I can think of.

Would the devil say this..
‘Never let your enmity for anyone lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Always be just: that is closest to being God-fearing.’
(al-Ma’idah 5:8)

or


[Successful are the believers]…who are faithful to their trusts and to their promises.’
(al-Mu’minun 23:8)

or

‘And be true to every promise- for, verily you willl be called to account for every promise which you have made.’
(al-Isra 17: 34)

I have no reason to think Satan could not nor would not say anything beyond claiming Christ is the path to God. That and that alone can save and is the only thing I would think Satan would never say. Saying Polio is bad is true and meaningless if you deny polio shots are good.

I am not an Islamic Scholar, upon studying the Quran I find that the Quran is full of lessons and stories, for both the Muslims of Muhammads times, their are instructions for them, specific to them and their situation, and there are lessons for mankind in general, The context of revelation is very important, much is to be understood by learning when and where the verses were revealed. I also realize what an enormous task studying the Quran and hadith in detail is and am skeptical in thinking that I will ever have enough time (Im in my early 20's) to learn enough to be considered knowledgeable in the field, there are too many views to look at and much to consider, I find it pathetic that some people on here use answeringislam.com and the linear one sided story presented by them and their like, their are tons of websites that bash Islam, I pity them for having a closed mind.

Have you ever heard the saying that what we do is far more revealing than what we say? If I say killing is bad or wrong and then cut the heads off helpless Jews until I am exhausted that would not obey a treaty I tried to force them to sign (an event simply conceded by Islam) would what I said or what I did be the more important. There maybe be many claims at a certain website that are wrong but denying claims based on website bias without proving it is a far worse tactic (why you even mentioned a site I did not use for my recent claims escapes me). Forget history for a minute. When ten of thousands of Muslims are flying planes into buildings, blowing up their own people at shopping centers, denying Israel's right to even exist, calling the greatest and most benevolent nation in history "a great Satan", chanting in the streets by the thousands celebrating the slaughter of civilians, starting and losing wars with Israel in some of histories most lopsided battles and then yelling foul, shooting rockets from hospitals at civilians and whining when responses occur, killing their own citizens for converting out of Islam, marching in the streets demanding a teachers head be taken because her students named a teddy bear Muhammad, or funding and supporting a thousand actions like this is there any wonder billions condemn Islam. It is not bias, it is not persecution, it is not unfair, it is common sense. In spite of literally swimming in oil most of the nations where Islam is dominant are backwards, violent, poor, and unstable. I can debate any history you want but current events make a strong case alone.

1robin I have heard your opinions, and of many more like you, I am not interested in believing without exploring the possibilities, I find that your claims of Muhammad being terrible only shed light at the ignorance regarding him.

You wish to haggle over very reliable history but any current weekly paper demonstrates the same type of actions I and ACCEPTED Muslim sources subscribe to Islam since it began and they are fact not historical probabilities. Of course not all Muslims do these things (though I see many more celebrate them than condemn them). Your seem to deny any basis for resolving any claim against Islam but simply deny them based on unproven bias and what you think Satan would do or not or condemning one source for every ten provided. I have never met a Muslim I did not personally like (I even dated one and my sister lives with one) nor have I ever seen any evidence that suggests the religion is from God.

Shalom,

 

[1robin]

1. The 66 books of the Bible plus the Ethiopian Enoch 1 are the only books I endorse as Scripture, however I will state that I've read part of the Koran and what I read seems to agree with Biblical scripture more often then not even though there are some obvious differences. When in doubt I'd say always trust the Bible over the Koran. However to me the Koran is historically accurate and does a good job at sorting through a ton of secular garbage.

Picking a random passage from the Koran states.
(I will say that their are 21 angels)



"

Let me ask this another way. If the Bible is the only scripture, it supersedes the Quran in every conflict, and is only useful where it agrees with the Bible then of what practical use is it for you? Historical? If Muhammad got the events on Calvary wrong then on what basis do you think it got 21 angel's names correct?

 

[Monotheist 101]

When ten of thousands of Muslims are flying planes into buildings

Sure tens of thousands..

Lol and you say you use Islamic sources, IMO not one true Muslim has done the above, where are the Islamic sources you claim to use, It is well known that the present Islamic community looks down upon acts of suicide and killing innocents. There are deceivers and extremists in every community.
Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog

The Quran teaches us to preserve life and do justice upon others, flying planes into buildings is not that, and you claim to have read the Quran and use Islamic sources.

Quran 60.8
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Quran 5.32
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all of Humanity: and ifany one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all Humanity. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs,yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

Quran 4.29
"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."

—Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446
​

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670
​

So according Hadith/Islamic sources, all the so called Extremists who blow themselves up or crash planes will do that for eternity...and in the Hell fire too..what sorry losers..

This is what I meant earlier by double standards and dishonest research..I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

May Allah guide us all

Peace

 

[Monotheist 101]

blowing up their own people at shopping centers, denying Israel's right to even exist, calling the greatest and most benevolent nation in history "a great Satan", chanting in the streets by the thousands celebrating the slaughter of civilians, starting and losing wars with Israel in some of histories most lopsided battles and then yelling foul, shooting rockets from hospitals at civilians and whining when responses occur, killing their own citizens for converting out of Islam, marching in the streets demanding a teachers head be taken because her students named a teddy bear Muhammad, or funding and supporting a thousand actions like this is there any wonder billions condemn Islam

You seriously think ALL Muslims can be held accountable for this..also read the report in the link in post 966.. you continue to amuse with your confirmation bias.

“confirmation bias.” When receiving information that runs counter to our beliefs, we tend to re-interpret it in a way that avoids the “cognitive dissonance” between the information and what we believe in. Philosopher Francis Bacon said in 1620 that “the human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion … draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises, or else by some distinction sets aside and rejects; in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate.” Confirmation bias is particularly likely to occur when we feel strongly involved and threatened in our opinions. If this happens, we tend to pay attention only to arguments that favor our pre-existing opinion, prefer evidence supporting our favored arguments – in short, we only hear what we want to hear.

And about your claims of Jesus being the only way, I think that is pitiful IMO the one thing God does not want us to believe, IMO No man is God, You considering Jesus the only way, lord and savior and part of a confused trinity that has no logical basis, and it is the one thing Satan wants you to do IMO, and he has thanks to another Satan IMO Paul.

 

[1robin]

You seriously think ALL Muslims can be held accountable for this..also read the report in the link in post 966.. you continue to amuse with your confirmation bias.

Of course not and that is probably why I specifically said that was not so. However a steady stream of exactly what I stated ever since Muhammad was given soldiers to prosecute pagan tribal grievances has been all to common to Islam to dismiss or ignore. There is something very wrong with this massive unbroken stream of injustice, oppression, terrorism, and violence. Unlike Christianity's violent episodes there is no widespread condemnation in Islam for these acts that I have ever seen (in fact the opposite seems to be the norm) and unlike Christianity it just seems to get worse and worse. I condemned at least one act of Christian violence (the crusades) without it even being brought up and would condemn almost all of them. It is very telling that you on the other hand only equivocated and dismissed claims that were brought up. Several thousand examples of that very thing start to add up in only my experience alone.

And about your claims of Jesus being the only way, I think that is pitiful IMO the one thing God does not want us to believe, IMO No man is God, You considering Jesus the only way, lord and savior and part of a confused trinity that has no logical basis, and it is the one thing Satan wants you to do IMO, and he has thanks to another Satan IMO Paul.

In what way is a personal opinion about the Trinity (which I did not mention) an argument against Christ's own claims to be the only way. Muhammad said Christ's claims were true. Unless you demonstrate those verses are corrupt you are disagreeing with Muhammad. Paul was commissioned by Christ and did not deny the nature of Christ as Christ said was true of anti-Christ's and which Muhammad did do. You made assertions devoid of evidence concerning Paul. I gave reasons and statements by the greatest theological figure in human history to demonstrate the claims about Muhammad I made. Whether you agree or not can you not see the difference in argumentation? I for some reason skipped post 966 but will go back and respond. It looks from first glance that you may have started to put up an actual argument in that post but I will see.

 

[Monotheist 101]

In what way is a personal opinion about the Trinity an argument against Christ's own claims

It is an opinion nonetheless, I dont beleive Christ taught half of what is attributed to him through Paul. He was a Jew reforming the Jewish religion(that has always been based on one God), the claims Christians attribute to Jesus dont reform rather further distort the simple truth, there is One God (1+1+1=3 not 1), a beautiful and deep concept that is way logical than bad math at best.

Of course not and that is probably why I specifically said that was not so.

But you continue to fuel the negative stereotype(a whole paragraph of your post is dedicated to highlighting and promoting the stereotype that the US Govt built, war on terror, yeh right, more like war for the heroine trade and oil)..what hypocrisy..you repeatedly highlight them because you believe them, no need to be dishonest..if you dont believe it and just say it/spread rumors and pass judgement on the WHOLE Islamic community, thats being dishonest aswell..class example of a hypocrite..One who acts opposite of what he claims..
US Planes bombing Afgahnistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IcvjD4VVjY
Afghans dont even know what 9/11 was ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJubz22D6AY

 

[1robin]

Sure tens of thousands..

It is in fact tens of thousands concerning all the claims that followed that statement. I have trouble believing that you actually honestly thought I was actually connecting tens of thousands and planes.

Lol and you say you use Islamic sources, IMO not one true Muslim has done the above,

Those that do these things suggest the exact same about the peaceful Muslims. If those that were violent were few and far between or were only minimal events in time I would gladly say they were the ones who were wrong. When they are a very significant portion of Islam and are a large and constant part of Islamic history and expansion and use very clear verses from the Quran to justify their actions it is impossible to say who are truly following Muhammad.

where are the Islamic sources you claim to use, It is well known that the present Islamic community looks down upon acts of suicide and killing innocents.

I am sure many do but I have also seen thousands (actually tens of thousands put together) chanting in celebration of atrocities committed by Muslims against innocent civilians. I am sure the peaceful Muslims are greater in number but the violent ones are far more committed and observable.

There are deceivers and extremists in every community.
Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil | Washington's Blog

Here is a quote from the FBI's actual report.

The most serious international terrorist threat to U.S. interests today stems from Sunni Islamic extremists, such as Usama Bin Laden and individuals affiliated with his Al-Qaeda organization.
FBI — The Terrorist Threat Confronting the United States
Is your blog or the FBI's own report the better source?
The whole report says the same thing as that quote.

The Quran teaches us to preserve life and do justice upon others, flying planes into buildings is not that, and you claim to have read the Quran and use Islamic sources.

It also tells Muslims to fight the unbelievers until they submit. I forget how many violent verses exist for every peaceful one but it is many. I know you will tell me that I have misunderstood that verse but when the verses about violence start running into the hundreds it gets a little ridiculous. (find even a single verse where Christ recommends actual physical violence, not allegories). The worst form of Christian terror occurred with the famous inquisitions. Muslim terrorists kill more people in an average year than all the inquisitions in their entire 400 year history.

Quran 60.8
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Quran 5.32
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all of Humanity: and ifany one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all Humanity. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs,yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

Quran 4.29
"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."

—Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446

​

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670

​

So according Hadith/Islamic sources, all the so called Extremists who blow themselves up or crash planes will do that for eternity...and in the Hell fire too..what sorry losers..

This is what I meant earlier by double standards and dishonest research..I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

May Allah guide us all

Peace

It appears you want a surah and/or hadith contest. I tell you what. I will give at least one more violent verse from the Quran than you can supply a peaceful verse to match if you will concede the point. Or I will give 5 peaceful verses for every violent verse you can find in the NT if you will concede, otherwise a scripture contest is meaningless. Give me some field of contest where the issue can be resolved? Your blogs, opinions, and verses will not settle the issue by simply posting them. BTW some of the same sources I quoted (and you condemned them all) are the same ones your quoted above.

 

[Monotheist 101]

the violent ones are far more committed and observable.

Thats because your promoting them, not to mention only observing who you want to.

It also tells Muslims to fight the unbelievers until they submit. I forget how many violent verses exist for every peaceful one but it is many.

And again you prove your ignorance..skim through my older posts, are you saying you know the context and to who those verses apply to..if you believe it is to all the non-believers than you are reaching the same uninformed conclusion that the terrorist scum are..I guess great minds think alike..

The most serious international terrorist threat to U.S. interests today stems from Sunni Islamic extremists, such as Usama Bin Laden and individuals affiliated with his Al-Qaeda organization.
FBI — The Terrorist Threat Confronting the United States
Is your blog or the FBI's own report the better source?
The whole report says the same thing as that quote.

Wasnt Osama dead? I prefer Osama over Usama, my brothers name is Usama, he's chilling in Texas with the atheists..Why you still stuck on Al Qaeda..IMO it was a hoax..the whole 9/11 tragedy, my heart goes out to the innocent people who lost their lives and loved ones but dont blame ALL the Muslims, I find it hard to believe that the most advanced defense systems failed and no one detected these threats.. where was the FBI? (not doing their jobs? or just looking away?) or the CIA (busy covering up old connections they had with Osama bin laden?), I also thought most of those videos where Osama would admit responsibility for attacks were photoshopped (am I the only one).. I dont buy in to propoganda that easy..something smells very fishy about how it all went down..
Do you seriously think the FBI has no interest in distorting reports? if you dont than im afraid you donot understand what a well thought out strategy is..

It appears you want a surah and/or hadith contest. I tell you what. I will give at least one more violent verse from the Quran than you can supply a peaceful verse to match if you will concede the point.

Im not interested in a contest.. you just keep proving how misinformed you are, picking up things out of context to prove your points, the only thing your proving is your ignorance regarding how the Quran should be studied..it isnt a childish book, why use childish methods to interpret it..again confirmation bias and hypocrisy, you claim to use Islamic sources to prove your point, whats sad is that you derive the wrong interpretation, I guess you find what your looking for and what fits your anti-Islam puzzle..

BTW some of the same sources I quoted (and you condemned them all) are the same ones your quoted above.

Again with the ignorance, either all of sudden when your points are refuted you either stop reading or skim through with out understanding the point made from the otherside.. I said previously the Hadith compilers have sections of their books dedicated to weaker narrations.. Would you know the difference between them if both were listed by Bukhari..
http://www.alahazrat.net/islam/the-definition-of-hadith-and-its-types.php
Peace

 

[1robin]

It is an opinion nonetheless, I dont beleive Christ taught half of what is attributed to him through Paul. He was a Jew reforming the Jewish religion(that has always been based on one God), the claims Christians attribute to Jesus dont reform rather further distort the simple truth,

Claims like this are not invalid but they are meaningless unless you give evidence they are true. Christ chose Paul in what way is what you believe an argument against that verse. Show it is wrong instead of simply claiming it is. Whether you think them good or bad I gave reasons, evidence, and sources not simply my beliefs. The NT stands per Muhammad's own words until you show it is corrupt.

there is One God (1+1+1=3 not 1), a beautiful and deep concept that is way logical than bad math at best.

You should not have said this. I have a math degree and this is one of the worst arguments against the Trinity (which never presented anyway) in human history. 1 monkey plus 1 monkey plus 1 monkey equals 1 troop. Three additive states equal one type of existence. A million parts added together equal one car. 1 person + 1 Person + 1 Person = 1 being. May or may not be true but in what way is math created by God (and misused by you) binding on God? I almost never debate the Trinity and have no need to claim Christ is the way (he did himself until you show otherwise). Islam in many ways is it's own worst enemy. For example.

1. Muhammad claimed the Bible was true. The bible never claims he was from God nor the Quran.
2. The Quran claims it is in pure Arabic yet even according to Islamic linguists contains between 100 and 200 pre Arabic words which apparently Muhammad did not even understand the meaning of.
3. It claims a man who lusted, killed, and looted was sinless. We do not.
4. The Quran for some reason mentions stories already recorded in contemporary multiply attested works and then proceeds to get most of them wrong.

I can go on but you guys create your own traps and then get caught in them. You make my mind up for me.

But you continue to fuel the negative stereotype(a whole paragraph of your post is dedicated to highlighting and promoting the stereotype that the US Govt built, war on terror, yeh right, more like war for the heroine trade and oil)

This is exactly what I have said and you are making the stereo type true yourself. I have volunteered and condemned Christian acts of violence. You blame Islam's on everyone but Islam. Who flew the planes into the building, the US or a Muslim who was actually helped by US to defeat Russia in Afghanistan. I am a veteran of both Gulf wars and have a math degree and so am in a much better position to judge these two issues than you, so you are only hurting yourself with the claims in this post and fueling the stereotype. Where did you even get the Heroine claim? It is Islam (among other locals) that grows the Heroine and our troops (several of whom I know) that have burned thousands of their Poppy farms. I do not even think the terrorists deny their heroine funding efforts but am not sure about it. If you keep digging this hole you are soon going to fall out the other side of the Earth.

..what hypocrisy..you repeatedly highlight them because you believe them, no need to be dishonest..if you dont believe it and just say it/spread rumors and pass judgement on the WHOLE Islamic community, thats being dishonest aswell..class example of a hypocrite..One who acts opposite of what he claims..
US Planes bombing Afgahnistan

I said exactly what I meant and would not deny anything that it contains. I almost never ever accuse anyone of lying. However when someone accuses me of doing so and must be dishonest to prove it then I feel more than justified. What I highlighted above is not only not true but I have stated many times that I do not claims anything of the sort. It is almost a paranoia to suggest that anyone that disagrees with your faith and can read a newspaper is out to get Islam.

[youtube]1IcvjD4VVjY[/youtube]
US B 52 Bombers dropes 2000 pound bombs on Afghanistan - YouTube
Afghans dont even know what 9/11 was ..
[youtube]XJubz22D6AY[/youtube]
Have you heard of 9/11? - Afghanistan - YouTube

I can't watch videos. I am on a DOD server. Do afghans not know what a TV is? Do you not know we are acting with the afghans against the terrorist that most of them have been victimized by? The president is helping us.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Do afghans not know what a TV is?

Thats what I find sad and funny, a lot of them probably dont.

 

[1robin]

Thats what I find sad and funny, a lot of them probably dont.

Leaving the issue of Afghanistan's awareness of appliances for a minute. Are you actually claiming that the majority of Afghans have no idea that the twin towers were destroyed? Do they never ask an American soldier why they have come to their nation? Can they not talk to each other? Are they unaware of anything that has occurred since Russia invaded their nation and we helped Islam to kick them out only to be cursed for our help? As a veteran I know we have made efforts to educate afghans for our presence there as well as their own government. What are you actually saying?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Leaving the issue of Afghanistan's awareness of appliances for a minute. Are you actually claiming that the majority of Afghans have no idea that the twin towers were destroyed? Do they never ask an American soldier why they have come to their nation? Can they not talk to each other? Are they unaware of anything that has occurred since Russia invaded their nation and we helped Islam to kick them out only to be cursed for our help? As a veteran I know we have made efforts to educate afghans for our presence there as well as their own government. What are you actually saying?

What Im saying is they are so caught up in their backward lives that they just dont give a flying duck..

Also Im not sure if as a veteran you are still linked in, on whats really going on. I have a friend who is a translator for the American army in Kabul, he says there is no green zone outside of Kabul, it is all Taleban, the public does not consider the Taleban as oppressors quite the opposite as heroes, they say that the Taleban are fighting for the peoples freedom(they have their own tribal system look up Pashtunwali codes), the picture my friend painted was of men who walk miles barefoot, barely eat or drink but just dont give two quacks, they want foreigners out who will never understand their code of ethics..

 

[1robin]

What Im saying is they are so caught up in their backward lives that they just dont give a flying duck..

What is worth a flying duck these days. Is not their backwardness also evidence for Islam's lack of divine guidance claims I have made? Alone it would not be but combined with Iran, the Sudan, and Egypt among many it's gets persuasive.

Also Im not sure if as a veteran you are still linked in, on whats really going on, I have a friend who is a translator for the American army in Kabul, he says there is no green zone outside of Kabul, it is all Taliban

Since I was honorably discharged I have been working in the defense industry and am surrounded currently by at least 50 Afghanistan veterans. I do not claim to know more than your friend necessarily but seriously doubt if Afghanistans people in general have no idea what happened on 9/11. I have made no claim about what the current tactical situation is there but doubt what you were told.

the public does not consider the Taleban as oppressors quite the opposite as heroes, they say that the Taleban are fighting for the peoples freedom(they have their own tribal system look up Pashtunwali codes), the picture my friend painted was of men who walk miles barefoot, barely eat or drink but just dont give two quacks, they want foreigners out who will never understand their code of ethics..

There are certain regions where the Taliban are heroes but that is a minority and even there informants constantly indicate they resent much of the Taliban's actions. The principle agreement is between opium farmers (the source of your heroine) and the Taliban members who market it for funding more terrorism. I also do not disagree with it's primitive conditions but even the most remote locations on Earth more often than not are aware of events on the scale of 9/11 even if their country is not occupied as a result of it. Is their code of ethics worth preserving if it has led to centuries of tribal warfare, infighting, and the backwardness you mention? It is a wonder and not an Islamic one but a general one that people will die to preserve a diminished quality of life in fighting against a better one. My own ancestors did so and I still do not get it. Why protect a lack of cures for diseases or as the Aztecs did to preserve the right to cut the hearts out of their neighbors by the thousands? A practice by the way a Christian stopped. I am out of time. You may not believe this but I have always enjoyed debating you even I can't figure out why. If you use that as an argument I will deny it. Have a good one.

 

[alviataylor]

For the moment, I'll focus only on your main concern, we can discuss other aspects of Mohammed later on.

Not all sources agree on the age of Aisha when she was married to and consummated with Mohammed. Some list her age as nine at marriage, and consummation at twelve. At the time, and location, this was common practice. Mary was around the same age when she was married to Joseph. While we, in today's society, find this to be reprehensible, it was the common practice back then, and, to some extent, has been retained.

I agree that it should not be done, but our perceptions today don't exactly equal that of those times. We know more now about psychology and anatomy to know that such a thing is not good for the well-being of the child. But regardless, it was common back then: this doesn't condone the practice, but it does explain it.

You have got pretty valid points here.. Leaving aside everything if anyone has problem of the age of marriage the times were different and it was common on those days

 

[Satnaam]

Pedophilia being common does not make it less horrible. A True Prophet would rise above such evil things which were common in society and show people the way, not indulge in those evil practises himself just because they were the norm.

Muhammad massacred tribes and took their women as booty, he was a petty warlord perhaps but not a prophet.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Muhammad massacred tribes and took their women as booty, he was a petty warlord perhaps but not a prophet.

Then why did your Guru use his teachings in creating a new religion? He must have been out of ideas..

 

[1robin]

Then why did your Guru use his teachings in creating a new religion? He must have been out of ideas..

This was no posted to me but I did not understand it at all. He claimed that Muhammad was a tyrannical warlord the same as I have. This statement has no effect on that and I do not even know what it means.