Was Muhammad a good man?

[YmirGF]

I am lost. I was not commenting on anything you said. I was responding to another person's comments about finding critiquing Islam something that is the focus of censorship many times. I was agreeing and telling them to throw in some IMOs and no one should complain (but they will anyway).

I know, hopefully my PM cleared things up for you.

I have been debating for years and have found Muslims to be the most indifferent to historically reliable information of any. I would rather debate Islam than anything and love Shabir Alli, but most simply deny inconvenient facts instead of debating them and eventually bail in the middle of a discussion.

The only credit history justifies for Muhammad is not flattering. Have you ever heard Shabir. He is a better Muslim debater than all the rest of the modern crop combined and very respectful? His skill, knowledge, and sincerity is worthy of a better cause.

For the most part, many defenders of the faith are somewhat stymied when you approach from ways they are not expecting. Most assume the person in your position has scant actual knowledge of Islam and so they can blow you off track rather easily given the huge volumes of discourse that exist in the Muslim world on virtually every topic.

The sad truth is that there are only only or two Muslims that I thought were actually good at debate. Most seem to rely on primitive debate methods that work on circular reasoning and simply cannot see the circular nature of their reasoning which can be a vexation in and of itself.

I have not checked out Shabir Alli, but will on your say so. Is this the correct Shabir Alli? "The president of the Islamic Information & Dawah Centre International in Toronto, Canada." If so, I have seen him before but wasn't too bowled over. I'll have another look see and let you know what I think. I giggled when I saw "Shabir Ally is known for accepting literal interpretation of the Quranic verses, but seeks to find their justification in similar expressions within the Christian Bible." on the Wiki entry. This could be fun.

I have no idea what can be worse than calling all that not just good, but Holy.

Fanaticism rarely needs justification. The ends justify the means.

 

[Barrackubus]

Islam and the founder of promotes violence to those who would oppose the teachings of this alledged prophet, supresses the rights of women and allows the mistreatment and murder of infidels and pedophilia.....sign me up, and for those who dont remember we do have 9/11 approaching....

 

[arthra]

Arthra, read the life of Muhammad and his actions. then come back and see if you still respect Islam or Muhammad.

Whats symbolic in marrying a 9 year old doll playing girl when he himself was 54? Disgusting act of Muhammad.

Sat naam,

As a Sikh don't you think you should respect all religions, including Islam?

"The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims."||1||Pause||

(Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 28 - Raag Bhairao)



I have read the life of Prophet Muhammad and have deep respect for Him and His life..

As to marrying a "nine year old girl" it should be noted that people at the time of Muhammad did not keep track of chronological ages as we do today.. there is evidence that Aisha was older when she married the Prophet... From some Muslim sites:

However, an in-depth study of historical facts and authentic ahadith actually reveals that this information can not be true, and Hazrat Aisha was at least 16-19 years old when she was married to the Prophet (PBUH).

Read more at

Hazrat Aisha's Real Age at Marriage Time - The Most Complete Explanation - The Absolute Verdict

also:

http://www.lastprophet.info/at-what-age-did-aisha-marry-the-prophet

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

[/B][/I]Read more at

Hazrat Aisha's Real Age at Marriage Time - The Most Complete Explanation - The Absolute Verdict

also:

At What Age did Aisha Marry the Prophet? - Re

Arthra, with all due respect, these are pro-Islamic sites and therefore may not be neutral in their evaluation. Such sites are always written with an agenda and with truth being secondary.

 

[Satnaam]

Sat naam,

As a Sikh don't you think you should respect all religions, including Islam?

"The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims."||1||Pause||

(Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 28 - Raag Bhairao)



I have read the life of Prophet Muhammad and have deep respect for Him and His life..

As to marrying a "nine year old girl" it should be noted that people at the time of Muhammad did not keep track of chronological ages as we do today.. there is evidence that Aisha was older when she married the Prophet... From some Muslim sites:

However, an in-depth study of historical facts and authentic ahadith actually reveals that this information can not be true, and Hazrat Aisha was at least 16-19 years old when she was married to the Prophet (PBUH).

Read more at

Hazrat Aisha's Real Age at Marriage Time - The Most Complete Explanation - The Absolute Verdict

also:

At What Age did Aisha Marry the Prophet? - Re

Funny argument brother. Sikhs believe that God has different names, including Allah BUT that does not mean that Islam is right. Allah predates Islam and is used as a word for the one God (not Allah for Muslims like in Islam but the Allah for Humanity). Sikhs reject cruel islamic practises like Halal, circumcision and also futile practises like Hajj and Ramadan. Read the Guru Granth Sahib.

"He adminsters justice to both Hindus and Muslims." Ofcourse God does? God administers justice even to atheists as there is simply One God for all, but where is Sikhi saying that Islam is the right path?

Page 477, Guru Granth Sahib
ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?
....
ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥ If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself.

Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebs [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery of the Creator.
M 1, 1021, SGGS.

I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis, they do not show the way to God, but contemplation on God is invaluable.
M 5, 265, SGGS

Sikhi does say to respect all human beings, not all philosophies (which are flawed, such as Islam - allows violence etc). If there is a cult that allows rape do we have to respect that then? No. Try to understand the difference between respecting everyone and not agreeing with everyone.

About Muhammad

There is more than enough proof that Muhammad married Aisha when she was mentally unprepared, playing with dolls and on a swing, and she was no more than 9 when it was consumnated.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: "Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."
Sahih Muslim 8:3310

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

“My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 131

 

[no-body]

I see Mohammad as a man. Very flawed and very human. Good in some things, bad in others. "Sinless" is a matter of opinion I guess.

My personal opinion is he was in contact with God but at some point either his followers corrupted his teachings to make him faultless or he gave in to temptation and let his ego speak for God. Probably the latter or a mixture of both.

He inspired a lot of people but in general I find the people he inspired to be more inspiring than he was. The Koran is all right.

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

He inspired a lot of people but in general I find the people he inspired to be more inspiring than he was. The Koran is all right.

Do you think verses like "Kill them where you find them" (of which there are dozens, if not hundreds in the Koran) are "all right"? I'm not saying that we judge Islam all on this one verse, but it is something we should be allowed to evaluate given that the Koran claims to be the word of G-d.

 

[no-body]

Do you think verses like "Kill them where you find them" (of which there are dozens, if not hundreds in the Koran) are "all right"? I'm not saying that we judge Islam all on this one verse, but it is something we should be allowed to evaluate given that the Koran claims to be the word of G-d.

I believe this is one of the parts of the Koran that Mohammed altered for his own use. As a piece of literature the Koran is more than all right; very poetic, philosophical and spiritual. Inspired by God but most certainly not straight from God's mouth. Then again I never said I was a Muslim.

Anyways you can find the same faults with the bible and Hebrew scripture. It's just more glaring with Islam since it is newer.

 

[kalyan]

I dont think so , there are many verses in hadith and quran that counter the fact that mohammad is a good person

 

[1robin]

Lets say this. Guru = spiritual teacher, master. The term has existed for thousand of years and some Hindu spiritual men were called Gurus (teachers). In Hinduism as a whole they are less important than the millions of gods, godesses demi gods BUT some sects exist where they do worship their Guru (the learned guy, teacher).

The difficulty here is that Hinduism is not really a religion but its many different religions and schools of thought. There are polytheistic schools but there are even monotheistic or atheistic schools of thought within what we classify today as Hinduism.

Coming back to Guru lets just say its the Indian equivalent of 'Lama'.


I'll try to explain it in 'abrahamic' terminology. We have had 10 prophets. The first prophet was Nanak Dev (born 1469 A.D.), born in a Hindu family but he rejected those practises. He preached 'Sikhi' to the masses. After him, there were 9 more Prophets. They had direct contact with the One (Lord) and had revelations which they wrote down. Their writings and some of their disciples were collected and put in the Granth Sahib by the prophets themselves. When the last prophet left this world physically in 1708 A.D. he declared that there will be no more human prophets but the prophet would be the Word of the Granth (we call it Shabad).
Since our equivalent of prophet, Lama or Hazrat (for Muslims) is Guru we use that as a prefix to our Gurus names. We have 10 Gurus and the 11th Guru is our scripture (Guru Granth Sahib, Guru prefix, Granth means book and Sahib as a token of respect).

Ok, I either concur or accept everything you said here. Thanks for the info. If you can post any of the miraculous or prophetic info I mentioned I will be good to go.

 

[1robin]

I know, hopefully my PM cleared things up for you.

It did and thanks.

For the most part, many defenders of the faith are somewhat stymied when you approach from ways they are not expecting. Most assume the person in your position has scant actual knowledge of Islam and so they can blow you off track rather easily given the huge volumes of discourse that exist in the Muslim world on virtually every topic.

Agreed. I have mentioned that it seems like they are al trained in primitive apologetics and have a list of things they are told to say and check off one by one. Of course that is not true by and large but it does seem that way. Either way when the list is exhausted so is their argument.

The sad truth is that there are only only or two Muslims that I thought were actually good at debate. Most seem to rely on primitive debate methods that work on circular reasoning and simply cannot see the circular nature of their reasoning which can be a vexation in and of itself.

Agreed. The arguments used by Islam against the Trinity (and that is not something I even debate much) are among the worst arguments against anything I have ever seen in a debate.

I have not checked out Shabir Alli, but will on your say so. Is this the correct Shabir Alli? "The president of the Islamic Information & Dawah Centre International in Toronto, Canada." If so, I have seen him before but wasn't too bowled over. I'll have another look see and let you know what I think. I giggled when I saw "Shabir Ally is known for accepting literal interpretation of the Quranic verses, but seeks to find their justification in similar expressions within the Christian Bible." on the Wiki entry. This could be fun.

On a scale of 1 -10. I put Shabir at an 8.5, Deedat at about a 5, and all other Muslim debaters at about a 2. He is not effective 100% of the time but he is always reasonable and civil. He also has a certain charisma that I have found rare in Islam. If you can find a Dr James White verses Alli debate I think you would enjoy it.

Fanaticism rarely needs justification. The ends justify the means.

I think fanaticism most in need of justification but most fanatics never require it.

 

[1robin]

I see Mohammad as a man. Very flawed and very human. Good in some things, bad in others. "Sinless" is a matter of opinion I guess.

Sinless means morally perfect. No matter what opinion is used he is not that.

My personal opinion is he was in contact with God but at some point either his followers corrupted his teachings to make him faultless or he gave in to temptation and let his ego speak for God. Probably the latter or a mixture of both.

Why did God select a man who would at some point jump the rails and mislead billions of people? Unless a reliable way is known to separate his ego from his revelation (IMO there none of the latter) then the whole book is too potentially dangerous to bother with. It also is redundant and unnecessary.

He inspired a lot of people but in general I find the people he inspired to be more inspiring than he was. The Koran is all right.

I like Islamic architecture and parts of the culture and even like some famous Muslims like Saladin but the faith its self possesses nothing inspirational. The history of what Islam has done is actually quite depressing.

 

[FearGod]

I believe this is one of the parts of the Koran that Mohammed altered for his own use. As a piece of literature the Koran is more than all right; very poetic, philosophical and spiritual. Inspired by God but most certainly not straight from God's mouth. Then again I never said I was a Muslim.

Anyways you can find the same faults with the bible and Hebrew scripture. It's just more glaring with Islam since it is newer.

The problem that most people talking about Islam don't know anything about Islam except that they search for false stories and distorted facts.

[youtube]_baxu3z60PM[/youtube]
Abdur Raheem Green - Life Of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). - YouTube

[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube

 

[1robin]

The problem that most people talking about Islam don't know anything about Islam except that they search for false stories and distorted facts.

[youtube]_baxu3z60PM[/youtube]
Abdur Raheem Green - Life Of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). - YouTube

[youtube]3Y2Or0LlO6g[/youtube]
Lesley Hazleton: A "tourist" reads the Koran - YouTube

It is certain he in fact borrowed almost word for word stories from pagan mythology, Arabian mythology, heretical Jewish sources, and Gnosticism (protevelum of James, Apocalypse of Peter, infancy Gospel of Mary, GOT, etc...). Virtually every pillar (act) in Islam existed in pre-Muhammad pagan culture (kissing the stone, praying a certain times per day, circling the Kaba, etc..). In what way are pagan practices from a strictly monotheistic God? The Quran contains demonstrably false claims, historical inaccuracies, and plagiarized doctrine. Those are facts (I can't watch your videos on my server) and no videos containing personal opinion has any effect on them. Many things can be debated what I claim here can't. They are historical and textual fact.

 

[arthra]

Arthra, with all due respect, these are pro-Islamic sites and therefore may not be neutral in their evaluation. Such sites are always written with an agenda and with truth being secondary.

The only sources we have are "Islamic" my friend...

 

[Agnostic75]

It is certain he in fact borrowed almost word for word stories from pagan mythology, Arabian mythology, heretical Jewish sources, and Gnosticism (protevelum of James, Apocalypse of Peter, infancy Gospel of Mary, GOT, etc...). Virtually every pillar (act) in Islam existed in pre-Muhammad pagan culture (kissing the stone, praying a certain times per day, circling the Kaba, etc..). In what way are pagan practices from a strictly monotheistic God? The Quran contains demonstrably false claims, historical inaccuracies, and plagiarized doctrine. Those are facts (I can't watch your videos on my server) and no videos containing personal opinion has any effect on them. Many things can be debated what I claim here can't. They are historical and textual fact.

James Holding is a gifted amateur Christian apologist. He has an enormous website at Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries. James Patrick Holding. Tektonitron apologetics Encyclopedia. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions. Noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Robert Price has acknowledged Holding's status as a gifted amateur. Holding has been reading one or two books a week for many years. He strongly opposes Islam. If you go to his website, and type in "Islam" to the left of Pico search, and then click on "go," it will take you to PicoSearch: Cataloging Your Corner of the Web: Results, where Holding has a number of articles on Islam. I think that the articles will be useful for you.

 

[arthra]

Do you think verses like "Kill them where you find them" (of which there are dozens, if not hundreds in the Koran) are "all right"? I'm not saying that we judge Islam all on this one verse, but it is something we should be allowed to evaluate given that the Koran claims to be the word of G-d.

"Kill them where you find them"

That's not the whole verse either....Read it context...

 

[arthra]

Sat Naam wrote above:

Sikhi does say to respect all human beings, not all philosophies (which are flawed, such as Islam - allows violence etc). If there is a cult that allows rape do we have to respect that then? No. Try to understand the difference between respecting everyone and not agreeing with everyone.

My comment:

Thanks for your response Sat Naam!

I had the impression that Sikhs respected all religions... oh well...

How about seeing the good in other religions..Can you go that far?

 

[1robin]

James Holding is a gifted amateur Christian apologist. He has an enormous website at Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries. James Patrick Holding. Tektonitron apologetics Encyclopedia. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions. Noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Robert Price has acknowledged Holding's status as a gifted amateur. Holding has been reading one or two books a week for many years. He strongly opposes Islam. If you go to his website, and type in "Islam" to the left of Pico search, and then click on "go," it will take you to PicoSearch: Cataloging Your Corner of the Web: Results, where Holding has a number of articles on Islam. I think that the articles will be useful for you.

1. Was this only intended as information? I appreciate it either way.
2. Was it an argument against what I stated?
3. Did it have another purpose?

I am unsure what you intended here. My claims are unusual for theological issues in that they can be proven. I hope your not disagreeing with them.

 

[FearGod]

1. Was this only intended as information? I appreciate it either way.
2. Was it an argument against what I stated?
3. Did it have another purpose?

I am unsure what you intended here. My claims are unusual for theological issues in that they can be proven. I hope your not disagreeing with them.

i guess he tried to help you to find more stories against the prophet which is of your interest.