Was Muhammad a good man?

[Scimitar]

Well, I can tell you now, that by reading your posts - you would most definitely be nodding your head to this video...

...but did you know, that the film maker and Dutch politcal party member, who made this film - actually investigated Islam afterwards and you know what? He's now a Muslim...


.... why?



AUTHENTIC RESEARCH - NOT OPINION.

Here is something for you to chew on:

Arnoud van Doorn: from anti-Islamic film-maker to hajj pilgrim
Why is a former member of Geert Wilders' anti-Islamic Party for Freedom – who made a film claiming Muslims are violent – tweeting from Mecca?

Arnoud van Doorn, the unlikely convert to Islam.

Name: Arnoud Van Doorn

Age: 47.

Appearance: White robes, white hat.

Nice. Is he some sort of Dutch medical orderly? Nope. These days he also sports a beatific smile.

He could be a happy medical orderly. He isn't. He's a happy Muslim.

Good for him. Why is that? Because he is currently doing the hajj.

Is that like the Netherlands' hokey-cokey? Again, no. It's the pilgrimage to Mecca that all Muslims are expected to perform at least once in their lives.

Ah. Been saving up for a long time, has he? About six months. He only converted from Christianity to Islam in April.

Fancy that. Well look, I'm very glad a middle-aged Dutchman is enjoying his religion, but I'm quite busy, so unless there's anything else ... He is not just any middle-aged Dutchman, mind you.

Oh no? Until his conversion, he was a member of the city council in The Hague, and a leading figure in Geert Wilders' anti-Islamic Party for Freedom, responsible, among other things, for producing the film Fitna, which argued that Islam, and Muslims generally, are violent, intolerant and bent on world-domination.

Quite a conversion then. Indeed. "According to some people I am a traitor," he told al-Jazeera at the time, "but according to most others I have actually made a very good decision."

Pretty much the same as before then? Yes, but with the people swapped around.

How on Earth does a professional Islamophobe end up converting to it anyway? Very gradually, Van Doorn says. He started by reading the Qur'an and was then persuaded to visit a mosque, where he was surprised to find himself made welcome and ended up staying all day. "I had a warm feeling, and I was really a bit confused," he says.

Perhaps he needed the loo? He says it was more than that. "It felt like a warm blanket … The more I learned about Islam, and the more I talked with other Muslims, the more I felt this is me." He now plans to launch a party to represent Muslims in Europe in a more positive light.

-The Guardian (and a whole host of other media streams - end

to be frank, I've been considering Islam myself. As much as I was initially against it since 2001 - the years have taken their toll and the studies warrant a better decision by me.

How Arnaud got there before me I will never know.

 

[Agnostic75]

To be frank, I've been considering Islam myself. As much as I was initially against it since 2001 - the years have taken their toll and the studies warrant a better decision by me.

Since you are only considering Islam, why have you defended the deplorable ways that all predominantly Muslim countries treat homosexuals?

Why do you believe that a God might have inspired Muslim writings?

 

[Scimitar]

where did i defend the ways that all predominantly muslim countries treat homosexuals? you trippin?

if you gonna accuse me of something, please provide the evidence or remain silent, thank you.

 

[Agnostic75]

First of all, since this question is about the Islamic stance on homosexuality, let us first investigate what the Quran says regarding this:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

What evidence do you have that that teaching is from God?

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

Regarding "of all creatures," the writer was ignorant of the fact that over 1500 species of animals, and birds practice homosexuality.

This shows us that homosexuality is a sin according to God.

No, what you quoted was according to the writer, not to God.

The idea is that God created male and female to procreate - not to enjoy each others bodies for the sake of sexual gratification.

Are you implying that no matter who God is, he opposes homosexuality?

Sexual identity is not a choice. In other words, when young people reach puberty, their sexual urges are not a choice. Research has shown that having sex has proven physical, and emotional benefits, and that practicing long term abstinence has proven health risks. An article at THE PROBLEM OF SEXUAL ABSTINENCE. discusses some of the risks.

A lifetime of loneliness, and never being able to hold, touch, kiss, and have sex with someone else is considered to be awful by most people. No loving God would want anyone to live that way.

Surely a large percentage of heterosexuals sometimes have sex only for pleasure.

Surely all women who have sex, and are no longer able to have children have sex entirely for pleasure.

From my understanding, the punishment for fornication, adultery, homosexuality and lesbian activity is a stoning.......

Consider the following that I have mentioned previously:

Islam and Homosexuality

The Hadith and homosexuality: The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)

There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith: "Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them."

Traditionalist orthodox Muslims generally claim that the Hadith literature contains the authentic sayings of Muhammad. Many liberal Muslims doubt their authenticity. The latter might point out that during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with individuals guilty of "liwat/lutiyya". No sahabi (companion) of Muhammad could quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question.

Traditionalist orthodox Muslims believe that Muhammad said that homosexuals should be put to death. Are you implying that Muhammad did not say that?

.......however, in order for such to take place requires evidence. And evidence in shariah court is harder to produce than any other law system in the world - this itself is a little known fact.

I happen to know something of shariah law, as I've studied it. In this instance (proving that someone or a couple are guilty of homosexuality/lesbianism/fornication or adultery) requires 4 eye witnesses.

let me amphasise that again.

4 EYE WITNESSES.

And this is where it gets even harder to prove - all 4 eye witnesses have to witness penetration, meaning a penis has to be inserted into a vagina and witnessed by four onlookers who do not approve and are going to tell on you...

.......do you see how problematic proving this can be?

It is not very problematic in Saudi Arabia. Consider the following:

LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia are unrecognized. Homosexuality is frequently a taboo subject in Saudi Arabian society and is punished with imprisonment, fines, corporal punishment, torture, capital punishment, and chemical castrations. Transgenderism is generally associated with homosexuality.

In May 2005, the government arrested 92 men for homosexuality, who were given sentences ranging from fines to prison sentences of several months and lashings. Likewise, on 7 November 2005 Riyadh police raided what the Saudi press called a "beauty contest for gay men" at al-Qatif. What became of the five men arrested for organizing the event is not known.

Do you approve of that?

 

[Agnostic75]

In Islam, if you sin and repent and your sin is safe from the general public, it is generally believed that Allah has shielded your sin so do not make it known.

Who is safe from what, and what countries are you referring to?

 

[Agnostic75]

Where did I defend the ways that all predominantly muslim countries treat homosexuals?

You said:

The idea behind the harsh and severe punishment does not contradict with the spirit of Islam, actually it serves as a deterrent to the society.

Were you referring only to stoning? If so, that is a terrible thing to do to homosexuals, or to anyone else.

It protects a person’s family.......

What do you mean?

.......lineage.......

What do you mean?

.......and spread of moral decadence.......

Homosexuals having sex in private is not morally decadent, and homosexuals saying that they are homosexuals in public is not decadent.

.......and diseases in society.

That is an absurd argument since heart disease kills far more heterosexuals, and homosexuals than AIDS does, and is frequently preventable.

Many homosexuals never had any STDs, and practice safe sex, and some have been monogamous for many years.

As far as longevity is concerned, a Wikipedia article at List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia shows that even people who live in rich predominantly Muslim countries have much shorter life spans than people who live in dozens of Western countries have. The highest ranked predominantly Muslim country is the United Arab Emirates, and it is only ranked 40th in the world.

 

[Agnostic75]

The main and fundamental difference between modern western law and Islamic shariah is this:

Western law: curative measures
Shariah law: preventative measures

Are you trying to find the truth, or do you just want to join the religion that has what you believe has the most orderly societies?

The Muslim treatment of women is absurd. The human body, both male, and female, is a beautiful thing, and there is not any credible evidence that God wants men, or women to cover their bodies.

In deserts, it makes sense for men, and women to cover their bodies, but certainly not in hot tropical rainforests. Do you object to people not wearing any clothes in hot tropical rain forests?

The countries which have Shariah law implemented in them, have some of the lowest crime stats in the world.

Which countries are you referring to?

Humans existed 50,000 years ago. How did God tell those people to live their lives?

Do you believe that humans, and chimps share a common ancestor?

 

[1robin]

Well, I can tell you now, that by reading your posts - you would most definitely be nodding your head to this video...

...but did you know, that the film maker and Dutch politcal party member, who made this film - actually investigated Islam afterwards and you know what? He's now a Muslim...


.... why?



AUTHENTIC RESEARCH - NOT OPINION.

Here is something for you to chew on:




to be frank, I've been considering Islam myself. As much as I was initially against it since 2001 - the years have taken their toll and the studies warrant a better decision by me.

How Arnaud got there before me I will never know.

My being completely ignorant of the film and these men lessens the impact of the narrative you supplied. I do appreciate the effort though.

I await your response for the topic to be discussed and a response to my earlier posts in general.

 

[Scimitar]

Well, if you cannot humour my attempt at reaching out to you, why should I do the same?

 

[1robin]

Well, if you cannot humour my attempt at reaching out to you, why should I do the same?

If you wish to do that then answer my post instead of importing in a whole new side issue and a film I cannot view on this server. I put quite a bit of time into giving you several areas to investigate Islam's history. As of now you have not commented on them or anything else I posted previously.

 

[Scimitar]

You realise you're asking me to trudge thru 177 pages of this thread? That's ridiculous by any standard - it's not like you're paying me or I am receiving any benefit by answering your questions is it?

The least you could do is post the questions you'd like me to try and answer specifically... and for the sake of common courtesy - don't post 101 questions, I haven't got the time of the day or night to write wall of text in response to questions you probably won't even consider.

 

[Sha'irullah]

It seems startling to me that anybody holds Muhammad to the same moral credibility of modern standards. A man who marries an underage girl not even in puberty and capable of understanding the impact of her own decisions. A man who kills in the name of a god that he himselfstole from the pagans. A man who slaughtered the poets ofhis time for speaking ill of him. As much as I love the paganliterature of Sahih Bukhari it still contains many evils. The slaughter of Abu al-Huqaiq can never be justified no mater what is said.

Muhammad does not hold up to current standards and harmonous morality. He has and never was a person who was interested in true peace. It was a very selfish peace

 

[FearGod]

It seems startling to me that anybody holds Muhammad to the same moral credibility of modern standards. A man who marries an underage girl not even in puberty and capable of understanding the impact of her own decisions. A man who kills in the name of a god that he himselfstole from the pagans. A man who slaughtered the poets ofhis time for speaking ill of him. As much as I love the paganliterature of Sahih Bukhari it still contains many evils. The slaughter of Abu al-Huqaiq can never be justified no mater what is said.

Muhammad does not hold up to current standards and harmonous morality. He has and never was a person who was interested in true peace. It was a very selfish peace

For the sake of argument let me assume that those stories about prophet Mohammed were true and not false.

Would you please explain why people loved him and how his little community shifted from ignorance to a civilized nation.

Would you please mention just one oppressor in the history that was beloved among his people and they cry once they remember his great works for humanity as prophet Mohammed did.

Just mention one name so we can see it to be a normal thing to happen, prophet Mohammed is loved by more than a billion people in this world,is that love was inherited years after years because he was so bad and oppressor.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Vlad tepes dracule is well loved in Romania

Mao is still loved in China

Stalin barely has any Ills in Russia

And most people in North Korea May indeed love Kim Jung Un and believed his father Was a diety...shrug who knows.

Depends on how big of a jerk a dictator is to his own people compared to the outside.

 

[Sha'irullah]

For the sake of argument let me assume that those stories about prophet Mohammed were true and not false.

Would you please explain why people loved him and how his little community shifted from ignorance to a civilized nation.

Would you please mention just one oppressor in the history that was beloved among his people and they cry once they remember his great works for humanity as prophet Mohammed did.

Just mention one name so we can see it to be a normal thing to happen, prophet Mohammed is loved by more than a billion people in this world,is that love was inherited years after years because he was so bad and oppressor.

I never said Muhammad was an oppressor, I only started that his ethical system does not live up to advanced ethics we have today. But now that I think about it Muhammad is still hated by 1/4 the world's population and the love towards Kim Jong-il is strong along with his twisted son. Perhaps that the relationship with Muhammad and Ali, seems befitting of a dictator. Also Hitler was quite loved by his people. Your logic is to speak to emotions, in short that is not logical. I am just expecting to much of Islamic apologetics which are honestly a joke. When straw man arguments and circular reasoning is over them I will take islam and Muhammad seriously

 

[FearGod]

I never said Muhammad was an oppressor, I only started that his ethical system does not live up to advanced ethics we have today. But now that I think about it Muhammad is still hated by 1/4 the world's population and the love towards Kim Jong-il is strong along with his twisted son. Perhaps that the relationship with Muhammad and Ali, seems befitting of a dictator. Also Hitler was quite loved by his people. Your logic is to speak to emotions, in short that is not logical. I am just expecting to much of Islamic apologetics which are honestly a joke. When straw man arguments and circular reasoning is over them I will take islam and Muhammad seriously

My question was kind of a tricky one as to show how biased you are.

My next question is

How did you know that many people love Kim,Can you really know what is the people's feeling.

You said Mohammed is hated by 1/4 of the people population,so it is around 2 billions person hate him,how did you know that ? Did you ask them and they swore to you that they hate Mohammed.

So you are the one and some others are using silly logic to legalize your own opinions as if it is the truth,and here it is,the silly ones as mine,but the difference that mine was a trap one for yours.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

My question was kind of a tricky one as to show how biased you are.

My next question is

How did you know that many people love Kim,Can you really know what is the people's feeling.

You said Mohammed is hated by 1/4 of the people population,so it is around 2 billions person hate him,how did you know that ? Did you ask them and they swore to you that they hate Mohammed.

So you are the one and some others are using silly logic to legalize your own opinions as if it is the truth,and here it is,the silly ones as mine,but the difference that mine was a trap one for yours.

While hate might be a strong word any Christian would view Mohammed as a false prophet.

 

[FearGod]

While hate might be a strong word any Christian would view Mohammed as a false prophet.

:biglaugh:

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

:biglaugh:

You laugh but given how many Christians there are while they might not have any ill will towards Islam that would be the thought. I know in my denomination (baptist) that Mohammed is regarded as a false prophet and isn't even given a more than just a thought. Though I adhere mostly to a non denominational stance I've seen other denominations express similar thought.

 

[1robin]

You realise you're asking me to trudge thru 177 pages of this thread? That's ridiculous by any standard - it's not like you're paying me or I am receiving any benefit by answering your questions is it?

The least you could do is post the questions you'd like me to try and answer specifically... and for the sake of common courtesy - don't post 101 questions, I haven't got the time of the day or night to write wall of text in response to questions you probably won't even consider.

I am not asking you to trudge through 177 pages of anything. I gave you several areas of possible debate in the last few posts we have exchanged and asked you to pick one. I will then go back and find what I have posted on them in the last 177 pages and provide my side of the argument. That is the least anyone could ask in a debate. Can you not pick from a small list of contentions made less than a week or so ago in our opening posts which you never addressed at all? Where did you even get the idea of my requesting you review 177 posts? I only commented in maybe 100 of them and did not even ask you to review those.