Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[siti]

That will take care of your body but it won't help your soul.

I'm donating that to RF in my will.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm donating that to RF in my will.

You can write it in there, but your soul was created by God and onto God it shall return, even if you don't believe in God...

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

 

[Prestor John]

So we should look towards the conclusions of the Nicea council presided over by the emperor Constantine 325 AD?

I do not consider any of the members of that council to be prophets, so no.

 

[Trailblazer]

“No, I did not say anything about merit. I just said that Islam is likely to be a true religion of God given how many people believe in Muhammad and devoutly follow the Qur'an... That ain't likely to be an accident.”

Do you really think so?

It seems clear to me that it is, at best, indeed an accident.

That would be one big accident. It makes no sense to me.
However, what most Christians believe about Jesus is in error and there are also a lot of them, so it could be that Islam was a mistake were it not for the Qur’an.

“Moreover, although nobody can ever prove God exists, it is likely that God exists, since it is unlikely that 93% of people in the world who believe in God are wrong about God. It just does not make sense that that many people could be wrong.”

More like "it does not make sense that literal existence of God is a serious subject matter for some people", really.

It is a serious subject matter if God exists.

It is poor theology and poorer attempt at religious practice. And that is really sort of self-evident when one considers it with a honest mind.

When I consider it with an honest mind, it is self-evident that the God of scriptures exists. I would probably not believe that though unless I had the Baha’i Writings.

“It has nothing to do with merit though. I have many friends who are agnostics and atheists and I highly respect their reasons for that decision.”

That, I am sorry to say, does not come too clearly from your arguments.

You can ask them if you want to. They know I respect them, after all these years. It is okay that we believe differently.
They also know I have a firm belief in God and Baha’u’llah, but they finally got used to it.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is good for your friends. Not necessarily quite so good for you, @Trailblazer

Trust in the Qur'an is... odd at best. Popularity can't really change that any.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the very first test to determine whether a man is a true prophet or not is if he teaches the divinity of Christ and Mankind's reliance upon Him for salvation.

If they do not teach that, then they cannot be a true prophet.

Muslims do believe in Jesus but they believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God, not that He was God. Jesus was not God. God cannot become a man.

Islam teaches that no one can gain salvation simply by virtue of their belief or deeds, instead it is the Mercy of God, which merits them salvation. However, this repentance must not be used to sin any further. Islam teaches that God is Merciful.
Salvation - Wikipedia

Does Islam teach salvation by works?

In Islam, forgiveness is based on a combination of Allah's grace and the Muslim's works. On the Day of Judgment, if a Muslim's good works outweigh his bad ones and if Allah so wills it, he may be forgiven of all his sins and then enter into Paradise.

Notice how the Qur'an teaches forgiveness based upon Allah's grace and man's works. Can any Muslim be assured of his salvation before his God? No.1 Numerous Muslims have told me that they do not know if they will make it to heaven because they do not know if their good deeds outweigh their bad ones. Unlike Christianity where we have assurance of salvation (John 6:47; 1 John 5:13), there is no assurance in Islam because it rests in part on the obedience and good works of Muslims. Unlike Christianity where salvation is an unearned, free gift from God (Rom. 4:3; Eph. 2:8-9), the Muslim can at best only hope he has performed enough good works to outweigh his bad ones, and that Allah so wills to forgive him.
https://carm.org/does-islam-teach-salvation-works

Christian belief is a selfish belief, only caring about getting to heaven. Do you understand that getting an unearned, free gift from God is not in accordance with a just God? Why should anyone get a free ride simply for believing Jesus died on the cross for them, despite any bad deeds they might do, despite any sins they might commit?

Muslims want to please God and that is by being obedient to God’s teachings and laws and doing good deeds. So, they do not have a guarantee but so what? That is so selfish to want a guarantee of salvation and not even care what happens to everyone else in the world who believe differently than Christians.

 

[England my lionheart]

then quote a source of Muhammad's time in support of one's statement, please. Right, please?
Regards

Mmmmm, I detect a lack of understanding here, maybe its a language thing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trust in the Qur'an is... odd at best. Popularity can't really change that any.

We all have our own preferences and our own prejudices.
In my opinion, Islam has been unjustly maligned by Westerners.

 

[stvdv]

1: I voted no, a claim to numbers doesn't make it true and looking at the places in the world where religion is held to be true theres little to think it is.
2: So let's look at Muhammeds claim, he heard voices in a cave that he said came from an angel, there is no proof of that it's only his word
3: The quran is the same as those who wrote the bible in that they were written by humans with power in mind
4: And if you look at the history of Islam its power through war and warbooty.
5: So really Muhammed was a messenger of a god if you give credence to the claim and therefore a belief and not a fact Imo

Summary: First define God, only then it makes sense to public debate "Was Muhammed a messenger of God" IMHO.
[If you like debate with all, then define simple what all can agree on "God is that energy/power what caused the universe + sustains it" or so]
[Don't put in "That destroys it", not yet experienced/seen. That is still a belief. Utterly useless also .. we would not be there to debate]
@Sunstone: You are very good in writing and they follow you. I see all the time debates fail because there is no agreeable definition of God. Can't you create a nice definition about God, that all agree on. You know most people. God-definition should have something in it that all like. Do NOT put in "erotic dancing girls", just stick to the normal virgin girls. Atheism narrows it down + Islam narrows down further. Or does RF have such a definition and I (as well as others) missed it?

Some very good points here.

a) First off all. Personally I believe we are all "Messengers". BUT I don't go that far to say "Messengers of God" ! First Define, then Debate
b) I think it would be smart on RF to first establish a definition of God that all agree on. Else it is "debate in thin air". Good as practice, but unreal.

1: Agreed, no proof. Claim to numbers says nothing.
2: Agreed, no proof. Hearing voices is the astral world. I also hear voices. All can hear with little practice. Especially when alone in a cave.
3: Agreed, no proof. But if God is true+good it makes sense He Helps the needy. But was Koran used OR abused [for power] in the time given?
4: Agreed, no proof. If God is all about Love, why instruct in war? But if God is about righteousness, I see a point to instruct in war!
5: Agreed, no proof. Most important point IMO. It is just a belief. As per definition "no fact". Claiming it "a fact" makes it best to trash as unworthy.

c) Muhammed was unlettered (see below Koran 29:48): But this can be seen as a proof that it was indeed special, and be seen as "made up by..."
c1) I know this stuff happens. Once I tried to study a very difficult (for me) Sanskrit scripture. I tried for many years. After like 60 pages start again, because I got lost. Maybe 10 times I tried like this. I don't give up easy. Then one night my Guru comes in my dream and starts explaining this scripture in Swedish. I wake up and think "what the hack was this?". I mean I am Dutch and Swedish is like Chinese for me. But after this dream I finished the book in a few weeks (was like 1000 pages). So this kind of magic I know it happens.
c2) Of course some people who want power/control could create this kind of plot "unlettered man receives this book from God". Even nowadays books with titles "Conversations with God" naturally intrigue people. And even more in those times when there was much brutality and dumb people. So easy to feed them this type of story to control them. They had Donar/Wodan also. This was just an extra one.
c3) Koran was received in good faith by Muhammed and later on someone took it and abused it.

c*) Whatever it is will always remain a mystery. My key is "Hurt Never, Help Ever". So I just take the good verses out, and I trash all the verses that harm in anyway others. That way I am sure I am safe in using it. And if God exists and has given it once, He can do it again, if He thinks stvdv leaves out too many verses. I do like to tickle God to tell me something in person. If I just parrot other people I don't create the need to tell me personally. Always good to be unlettered. That we see with Muhammed, then stuff gets revealed. Best to know little sometimes IME.

Koran 29:48You never recited any Scripture before We revealed this one to you; you never wrote one down with your hand. If you had done so, those who follow falsehood might have had cause to doubt. 49But no, [this Qur?an] is a revelation that is clear to the hearts of those endowed with knowledge. No one refuses to acknowledge Our rev- elations but the evildoers. 50They say, ‘Why have no miracles been sent to him by his Lord?’ Say, ‘Miracles lie in God’s hands; I am simply here to warn you plainly.’ 51Do they not think it is enough that We have sent down to you the Scripture that is recited to them? There is a mercy in this and a lesson for believing people. 52Say, ‘God is sufficient witness between me and you: He knows what is in the heavens and earth. Those who believe in false deities and deny God will be the losers.’

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wasn't talking about the historicity of Muhammad. My point was that nobody can be a messenger of God unless God exists, so it's impossible to establish that someone is a messenger of God unless the existence of God is established first.

It is not necessary to establish that God exists in the first instance. Christ and Muhammad are proofs of God's existence through the power and influence of Their Teachings to transform positively the lives of so many throughout history.

 

[stvdv]

It is not necessary to establish that God exists in the first instance. Christ and Muhammad are proofs of God's existence through the power and influence of Their Teachings to transform positively the livs of so many throughout history.

Not only the existence of God needs to be established IMO.

Start simple: Create a definition of God that all on RF agree on; otherwise talking about God is kind of non-sense. Does that make sense?

 

[Dawnofhope]

As writer Robert Spencer points out both in his book and his videos, as do other videos I've watched, it wasn't until years after Muhammad's supposed death that we begin to have coins with his likeness. Rather, some of the early history appears to be a corrupted Christianity or simply a racial/tribal grouping.

Here's some of the issues.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.co...alled-muhammad-up-to-732-a-d-was-he-a-caliph/

Hi Samantha,

Thank you for posting. I listened to the video. I found it a little unbalanced and one sided to be frank.

I looked up good old wikipedia:

His viewpoints have been described as anti-Islamic or Islamophobic,Spencer describes himself as "the “good” kind of Islamophobe."In 2013 the UK Home Office has barred Spencer and Geller from travel to the UK for 3 to 5 years for "making statements that may foster hatred that might lead to inter-community violence".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spencer_(author)

I'm reasonably certain He would be banned from saying the things he does in my country too.

He's obviously impressed you.

Lack of historic evidence is probably a product of having emerged in a country that was so uncivilised by anyones standards with low rates of literacy, where there was a reliance of oral traditions.

Islam became corrupted at an early stage which accounts for the division between Sunni and Shi'ite. I would suspect that the expansion of Islam through the Rushidan amd Umiyad Caliphate had more to do with worldly power than spreading Muhammad's Teachings.

However Robert Spencer has obviously researched in depth and its beyond my area of expertise to comment further. The main reason I'm posting about Islam is to learn more about religion generally and world history.

Thanks again for your post.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not only the existence of God needs to be established IMO.

Start simple: Create a definition of God that all on RF agree on; otherwise talking about God is kind of non-sense. Does that make sense?

I doubt if we will get everyone on RF to agree on a definition of God.

The Baha'i view is the God is an unknowable essence.

The open verses of Genesis where God Creates all, presents the God of Abraham has One who is concerned for His Creation, and is systematic.

Christianity presents a very personal God whom we best come to know through His Son Jesus.

Islam presents God as One and confirms the necessity of believing in all the prophets that have gone beforehand with emphasis on Jesus and Moses.

The Baha'is affirm the impotance of understanding God through His Manifestations or Great Teachers.

Through my last two threads I've been able to investigate some of the key differences in theological concepts between Islam and Christianity.

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...logical-concepts-of-god-be-reconciled.210107/

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/

Buddhism and Hinduism are part of the picture too but you may be better to comment on the Dharmic Faiths and how they clarify our concept of God/gods or not.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe the very first test to determine whether a man is a true prophet or not is if he teaches the divinity of Christ and Mankind's reliance upon Him for salvation.

If they do not teach that, then they cannot be a true prophet.

By that reasoning Moses and the OT prophets would not be from God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Then every generation would have at least one messenger, not one messenger per every few centuries or whatever.

This kind of thing happens when you place all of your eggs into a basket hundreds if not thousands of years old.

Desperately clinging to old texts for modern guidance is like thinking the world is going to end because some Mayans ran out of room drawing their calendar.

To close a canon is to invite slavery to ignorance. If God is everlasting, so too should be the messages.

Baha'is see God's revelation as progressive and advancing humanity spiritual and intellectual capacity with each cycle. The Great Educators of the past have included Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, and Muhammad. For Baha'is more recently we believe Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for today.

You are right in that each revelation is bound to some extent by the culture from which it emerges. Both Islam and Christianity did not abolish slavery, establish the full equality of men and women, promote international cooperation and peace, or the necessity for the harmony of science and religion. These are all essential principles for the age in which we now live.

I'd never heard of Jerusalem syndrome btwn and I was a psychiatry intern for seven years. Maybe I should have become a nurse, have greater humility and learn more.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is not necessary to establish that God exists in the first instance.

If there is no God, then there can be no Messengers of God.

Christ and Muhammad are proofs of God's existence through the power and influence of Their Teachings to transform positively the livs of so many throughout history.

I’d want to see the work behind that “proof” before I could accept it.

It wouldn’t be a trivial task to establish that either of them were “Messengers of God” even if God’s existence was taken as a given. You’d really have an uphill battle to try and use them to demonstrate that God exists because they must be “Messengers of God.”

 

[Dawnofhope]

I voted no, a claim to numbers doesn't make it true and looking at the places in the world where religion is held to be true theres little to think it is.

So let's look at Muhammeds claim, he heard voices in a cave that he said came from an angel, there is no proof of that it's only his word,the quran is the same as those who wrote the bible in that they were written by humans with power in mind and if you look at the history of Islam its power through war and warbooty.

So really Muhammed was a messenger of a god if you give credence to the claim and therefore a belief and not a fact Imo.

Thank you for contributing to the thread and explaining why you don't believe Muhammad to be a Messenger of God. I suspect many in the West feel as you do.

 

[LuisDantas]

We all have our own preferences and our own prejudices.
In my opinion, Islam has been unjustly maligned by Westerners.

And in mine, it has been fabulously protected from even slight and very deserved criticism by pretty much everyone (including many of its critics). It (and the Qur'an) is in fact a very impressive example of taking refuge in audacity. Time and again it perplexes simply because it dares to make certain statements with reverence, despite all logic, coherence and the demands of basic dignity.

Come to think of it, Islaam may well be the single concept in the whole of human history that received the most protection. Several orders of magnitude more than it could ever have deserved.

 

[England my lionheart]

Summary: First define God, only then it makes sense to public debate "Was Muhammed a messenger of God" IMHO.
[If you like debate with all, then define simple what all can agree on "God is that energy/power what caused the universe + sustains it" or so]
[Don't put in "That destroys it", not yet experienced/seen. That is still a belief. Utterly useless also .. we would not be there to debate]
@Sunstone: You are very good in writing and they follow you. I see all the time debates fail because there is no agreeable definition of God. Can't you create a nice definition about God, that all agree on. You know most people. God-definition should have something in it that all like. Do NOT put in "erotic dancing girls", just stick to the normal virgin girls. Atheism narrows it down + Islam narrows down further. Or does RF have such a definition and I (as well as others) missed it?

Some very good points here.

a) First off all. Personally I believe we are all "Messengers". BUT I don't go that far to say "Messengers of God" ! First Define, then Debate
b) I think it would be smart on RF to first establish a definition of God that all agree on. Else it is "debate in thin air". Good as practice, but unreal.

1: Agreed, no proof. Claim to numbers says nothing.
2: Agreed, no proof. Hearing voices is the astral world. I also hear voices. All can hear with little practice. Especially when alone in a cave.
3: Agreed, no proof. But if God is true+good it makes sense He Helps the needy. But was Koran used OR abused [for power] in the time given?
4: Agreed, no proof. If God is all about Love, why instruct in war? But if God is about righteousness, I see a point to instruct in war!
5: Agreed, no proof. Most important point IMO. It is just a belief. As per definition "no fact". Claiming it "a fact" makes it best to trash as unworthy.

c) Muhammed was unlettered (see below Koran 29:48): But this can be seen as a proof that it was indeed special, and be seen as "made up by..."
c1) I know this stuff happens. Once I tried to study a very difficult (for me) Sanskrit scripture. I tried for many years. After like 60 pages start again, because I got lost. Maybe 10 times I tried like this. I don't give up easy. Then one night my Guru comes in my dream and starts explaining this scripture in Swedish. I wake up and think "what the hack was this?". I mean I am Dutch and Swedish is like Chinese for me. But after this dream I finished the book in a few weeks (was like 1000 pages). So this kind of magic I know it happens.
c2) Of course some people who want power/control could create this kind of plot "unlettered man receives this book from God". Even nowadays books with titles "Conversations with God" naturally intrigue people. And even more in those times when there was much brutality and dumb people. So easy to feed them this type of story to control them. They had Donar/Wodan also. This was just an extra one.
c3) Koran was received in good faith by Muhammed and later on someone took it and abused it.

c*) Whatever it is will always remain a mystery. My key is "Hurt Never, Help Ever". So I just take the good verses out, and I trash all the verses that harm in anyway others. That way I am sure I am safe in using it. And if God exists and has given it once, He can do it again, if He thinks stvdv leaves out too many verses. I do like to tickle God to tell me something in person. If I just parrot other people I don't create the need to tell me personally. Always good to be unlettered. That we see with Muhammed, then stuff gets revealed. Best to know little sometimes IME.

Koran 29:48You never recited any Scripture before We revealed this one to you; you never wrote one down with your hand. If you had done so, those who follow falsehood might have had cause to doubt. 49But no, [this Qur?an] is a revelation that is clear to the hearts of those endowed with knowledge. No one refuses to acknowledge Our rev- elations but the evildoers. 50They say, ‘Why have no miracles been sent to him by his Lord?’ Say, ‘Miracles lie in God’s hands; I am simply here to warn you plainly.’ 51Do they not think it is enough that We have sent down to you the Scripture that is recited to them? There is a mercy in this and a lesson for believing people. 52Say, ‘God is sufficient witness between me and you: He knows what is in the heavens and earth. Those who believe in false deities and deny God will be the losers.’

Define a god that afaik doesn't exist so that's not going to happen and not everyone who believes would share the same definitions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In that case Baha'u'llah was a thousand years late! Even Muhammad's appearance was at least 300 years after Christianity began to dissolve into fractious sectarianism - and there was precious little "protection of good" in the Roman part of the Christendom - well until now - at least 18 centuries on from the beginning of the "decay of righteousness" in the pre-Islamic dispensation.

Within both Judaism and Islam there were suffient laws for the establishment and development of city-states and nations. Christianity with its abandonment of the Old Covenant seems somewhat less theocratic. I doubt if the Christian Roman emperors (if we could really call them Christian) had the motivation or skills to use the Teachings of Christianity for the proper governance of its peoples. However institutional capacity developed over time. It was many centuries after the Revelation of Moses until the Hebrew peoples reached its pinnacle under King David. It is of note that Islams Civilisation reached a rather extended pinnacle through the so called Golden age relatively soon after the Qur'an was revealed. The Golden age in turn influenced Europe through Islam's incursion into Spain and Turkey and contributed profoundly towards Europe's renaisance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age