Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

[Greatest I am]

Eve was deceived -and also was not cautious -and acted in ignorance.
All can be true.
She could have done things differently -like getting more info before acting.

You did not go far enough -you did not consider what I wrote enough -but went forward in error......

Ironically, the same mistake Satan and Eve made.

.......................

God becomes angry for generally the same reasons we do.
He is angry with Satan's foolishness -but is also patient.
God does not hate Satan -and would accept him as the father of the "prodigal son" did if he repented.

God did purposefully allow Satan and Eve to interact, etc.
The reason is that it will eventually be for the benefit of all.
The psychological effect of such juxtaposition coupled with the experience base all will eventually have will bring all to the point of acceptance of the truth with the proper attitude.

It is possible that any who utterly refuse to accept what is good -having proved that it is -but still choose a destructive path may be destroyed -but it is not outside the realm of possibility that all eventually accept the truth and live by it. Still, they must choose it.

This is why the being which became Christ went and preached to the spirits in "prison" -those rebellious angels which were restrained. The following is not referring to the spirits of dead men......

I Pet 3
".....but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah"

God did not create stupid beings -but inexperienced ones.

Informing someone of all truth that exists still allows for them to wonder and doubt.
I can tell you there is nothing in my glove box, but you don't know it is the truth because you are not certain that I always tell the truth. You might just want to check it out for yourself.
It has nothing to do with your intelligence.
I can tell you there is something in the glove box that will affect you adversely, but you may still decide to check it if you think I'm hiding something that would benefit you.

It is not just about knowing the truth -but knowing the person.

All Satan knew about God was what God told him.
God instructed Satan not to act contrary to him -that obeying him was the best course of action -and that he was telling him the truth.
Satan wanted to see that which was not -and do that which was not being done.
He could have reasoned it out, but that doesn't drive a point home like experience does.
He is checking the glove box -and will prove that God is God -that he is telling the truth.

Allowing beings to prove what is true in the way they choose will lead to them eventually accepting the truth for themselves -but it produces a lot of misery in the meantime.

Don't wonder why God put Satan right beside Eve.

Have you ever heard the Exsultet hygm?

Have you ever wondered why they name Adam's sin as a necessary evil and a happy fault?

Don't.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

If the "free Raif" avatar and the infidel religious label are not sufficiently clear to you, there's not a problem on my end.

To assume all know your avatar is foolish.

To not speak in a clear enough way for people to know your position is not a good trait and you must know your limitation or you would not expect your avatar to do you talking for you.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

It would be a bit rediculous to claim Satan thought he could fight God and win. It certainly was not about Satan trying to be equal to God persay.
.

How do you explain that a full third of the heavenly host thought the same way Satan did?

Are you suggesting that God made that many angels who were too stupid to know they could not gain equality in heaven?

If not, then explain how they could possibly think the could.

Regards
DL

 

[Etritonakin]

Don't wonder why God put Satan right beside Eve.

Have you ever heard the Exsultet hygm?

Have you ever wondered why they name Adam's sin as a necessary evil and a happy fault?

Don't.

Regards
DL

Ummm... I don't wonder -I understand

And.... I don't really care what "they" think.

Furthermore.... if you are making a point, I have no idea what it is.

 

[Greatest I am]

Ummm... I don't wonder -I understand

And.... I don't really care what "they" think.

Furthermore.... if you are making a point, I have no idea what it is.

It is that God wanted us to sin.

The point is that to read scriptures literally hides the true message the author wanted to give us.

That is why the Jews who wrote that myth define it as man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity saw in it.

If you cannot see all the glitches in your literal reading of a myth, then you are not much of a thinker.

This link speaks to these issues. Listen and learn, if you still can.

Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Regards
DL

 

[Etritonakin]

It is that God wanted us to sin.

The point is that to read scriptures literally hides the true message the author wanted to give us.

That is why the Jews who wrote that myth define it as man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity saw in it.

If you cannot see all the glitches in your literal reading of a myth, then you are not much of a thinker.

This link speaks to these issues. Listen and learn, if you still can.

Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Regards
DL

False.

God wanted us to not sin.

God knew that it was likely -if not inevitable -that we would sin.

Therefore God knew that we would then have to overcome sin.

That is very different than wanting us to sin.

Gen 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

My literal reading of what is literally written reveals that God purposefully gave the creation over to futility (including sin) -for a good reason.

I totally get that.

Romans 8
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[Greatest I am]

False.

God wanted us to not sin.

God knew that it was likely -if not inevitable -that we would sin.

Therefore God knew that we would then have to overcome sin.

That is very different than wanting us to sin.

Gen 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

My literal reading of what is literally written reveals that God purposefully gave the creation over to futility (including sin) -for a good reason.

I totally get that.

Romans 8
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

So you get that God wanted to make you a dependant slave.

Yet you adore such a prick.

Keep reading literally, slave.

--------------------------


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

That being true, for God to punish us for being exactly what he created makes God unjust and not fit to rule mankind.

That is likely why he does not show his vile demiurge face to humanity. Shame keeps him hiding.

Regards
DL

 

[InChrist]

Yet to take God's provided method, you have to embrace the notion that it is just to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

If you are willing to sell your soul to Satan to keep your get into heaven in an immoral way ticket, then by all means follow your satanic creed.

----------------------

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

I agree it is wrong to punish one child or anyone for the wrongs of another. But I don't think your analogy works as a comparison to the biblical message of atonement and reconciliation through Christ because Jesus Christ is not just "anyone" who was punished for the sins of the world. I see revealed in the scriptures that He is God the Son, second Person of the Godhead, the Creator who chose to come Himself to pay for the sins of the world and redeem humanity. The lesson for me is His love...Self-sacrificing, demonstrative, forgiving, complete LOVE. It also teaches me the huge cost of my sin to myself, others, and God. I'm grateful I've learned to "change my mind" from striving for my own will to believing and desiring God's perfect loving will.

According to the scriptures, Christ willingly paid for your sins and my sins so that we could escape paying the eternal penalty ourselves. Contrary to your assessment of this act as immoral, God calls it grace and love. A person who comes to understand this and repents is changes and indwelt by Christ, not escaping responsibility, but through God's mercy escaping eternal separation.

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree it is wrong to punish one child or anyone for the wrongs of another. But I don't think your analogy works as a comparison to the biblical message of atonement and reconciliation through Christ because Jesus Christ is not just "anyone" who was punished for the sins of the world. I see revealed in the scriptures that He is God the Son, second Person of the Godhead, the Creator who chose to come Himself to pay for the sins of the world and redeem humanity. The lesson for me is His love...Self-sacrificing, demonstrative, forgiving, complete LOVE. It also teaches me the huge cost of my sin to myself, others, and God. I'm grateful I've learned to "change my mind" from striving for my own will to believing and desiring God's perfect loving will.

According to the scriptures, Christ willingly paid for your sins and my sins so that we could escape paying the eternal penalty ourselves. Contrary to your assessment of this act as immoral, God calls it grace and love. A person who comes to understand this and repents is changes and indwelt by Christ, not escaping responsibility, but through God's mercy escaping eternal separation.

I see. So it is immoral except when the victim is a powerful one.

How grotesque are your morals thanks to your religion.

You attribute God's sacrifice to his love for man yet ignore that he could have rescinded his condemnation in a moral way by just forgiving us.

The fact that you do not condemn your God for his immorality is just you trying to keep your get into heaven free card.

Shame on both you and your corrupted morals.

Regards
DL

 

[Quagmire]

I see "The War in Heaven" as an analogy for the contest going on inside every human being's head: the one between our conscience and our ego.

The human ego is a liar who cares more about it's own pride than other peoples feelings, rights, or even their welfare. It can talk itself into anything.

So The War in Heaven scenario isn't about a rebel trying to overthrow a tyrant, ie., it isn't about a slave trying to set himself and his followers free, it's about a would-be tyrant throwing a tantrum because he was denied the ability to enslave every other being in existence.

 

[Greatest I am]

I see "The War in Heaven" as an analogy for the contest going on inside every human being's head: the one between our conscience and our ego.

The human ego is a liar who cares more about it's own pride than other peoples feelings, rights, or even their welfare. It can talk itself into anything.

So The War in Heaven scenario isn't about a rebel trying to overthrow a tyrant, ie., it isn't about a slave trying to set himself and his followers free, it's about a would-be tyrant throwing a tantrum because he was denied the ability to enslave every other being in existence.

You must have read on Freud's Father Complex.

You are exactly right. Our egos working with our subconscious mind is trying to make us the fittest of breed.

It is driven by our instincts. It is quite a good survival trait.

Tie that into the Jewish Divine Council and you have what God, our human invention, is all about.

Regards
DL

 

[Quagmire]

You must have read on Freud's Father Complex.

No, I just read people.

It is driven by our instincts.

If we're still speaking in Freudian terms, that would be the Id, not the Ego.

In any case, I was using "Ego" in it's more colloquial sense: as a synonym for narcissism, and/or a propensity for self-aggrandizing. Or more simply put: self-centeredness. An over-inflated sense of self-entitlement is usually a part of the package.

It is quite a good survival trait.

It's actually a fairly recent development in the human psyche, and it's more often a catalyst for self-destruction than self-preservation.

Tie that into the Jewish Divine Council and you have what God, our human invention, is all about.

I thought we were talking about Satan.

 

[InChrist]

I see. So it is immoral except when the victim is a powerful one.

How grotesque are your morals thanks to your religion.

You attribute God's sacrifice to his love for man yet ignore that he could have rescinded his condemnation in a moral way by just forgiving us.

The fact that you do not condemn your God for his immorality is just you trying to keep your get into heaven free card.

Shame on both you and your corrupted morals.

Regards
DL

I thank God that He doesn't "just forgive" us and plan to let us continue on into eternity in our self-centered way of sin which causes so much heartache, harm, and violence in this world. What kind of justice or morality would it be for God to wink at such destructive behavior as displayed by humans everyday? I think it is irrational to the extreme to assume God should let sin slide. I am glad He is just and evil is punished and dealt with while also offering freedom and true change through His love.

 

[Sabour]

If honest and direct as you say then I expect you to give an honest and direct answer to the original question.

Regards
DL

Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

What exactly equal rights we are talking about ?


7:12 [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

7:13 [ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

7:14 [Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."

7:15 [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."

7:16 [Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

7:17 Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."

7:18 [ Allah ] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."

7:19 And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

7:20 But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."

7:21 And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

7:22 So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?"

7:23 They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

7:24 [ Allah ] said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time."

7:25 He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

7:27 O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their clothing to show them their private parts. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe.

7:28 And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

7:29 Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves [in worship of Him] at every place [or time] of prostration, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return [to life] -

What rights are we talking about? Satan was a racist when God created Men and thought he was a better creation. It is not the way you are putting it.

 

[Desert Snake]

I see "The War in Heaven" as an analogy for the contest going on inside every human being's head: the one between our conscience and our ego.

The human ego is a liar who cares more about it's own pride than other peoples feelings, rights, or even their welfare. It can talk itself into anything.

So The War in Heaven scenario isn't about a rebel trying to overthrow a tyrant, ie., it isn't about a slave trying to set himself and his followers free, it's about a would-be tyrant throwing a tantrum because he was denied the ability to enslave every other being in existence.

Who is the ego represented by?

 

[Greatest I am]

No, I just read people.



If we're still speaking in Freudian terms, that would be the Id, not the Ego.

In any case, I was using "Ego" in it's more colloquial sense: as a synonym for narcissism, and/or a propensity for self-aggrandizing. Or more simply put: self-centeredness. An over-inflated sense of self-entitlement is usually a part of the package.



It's actually a fairly recent development in the human psyche, and it's more often a catalyst for self-destruction than self-preservation.

I thought we were talking about Satan.

We are. She is just as much of our creation as the Gods we have created.

I do not see us striving to be the fittest as a negative. How you can see it as a negative must be due to personal data and nothing scientific.

If it was destructive, I doubt that that trait would be passed down to us. It does create stress and kills us faster when left unchecked.

You do not seem to like our selfish gene but nature does.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I thank God that He doesn't "just forgive" us and plan to let us continue on into eternity in our self-centered way of sin which causes so much heartache, harm, and violence in this world. What kind of justice or morality would it be for God to wink at such destructive behavior as displayed by humans everyday? I think it is irrational to the extreme to assume God should let sin slide. I am glad He is just and evil is punished and dealt with while also offering freedom and true change through His love.

You continue to show your lack of morality.

You want God to return evil for the evil you see while your own bible tells you and God to return good to the evil.l

Your hate is making you ignore your own bible's good advice.

Thanks for showing all here your hate and how you prefer to have God kill instead of cure those he created to be exactly what they are.

Show more of your filthy morals. It does good for my side. Keep showing the hate your religion preaches while ignoring scriptures.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

What exactly equal rights we are talking about ?


7:12 [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

7:13 [ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

7:14 [Satan] said, "Reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."

7:15 [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, you are of those reprieved."

7:16 [Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

7:17 Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful [to You]."

7:18 [ Allah ] said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill Hell with you, all together."

7:19 And "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."

7:20 But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."

7:21 And he swore [by Allah ] to them, "Indeed, I am to you from among the sincere advisors."

7:22 So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?"

7:23 They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers."

7:24 [ Allah ] said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time."

7:25 He said, "Therein you will live, and therein you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."

7:26 O children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you clothing to conceal your private parts and as adornment. But the clothing of righteousness - that is best. That is from the signs of Allah that perhaps they will remember.

7:27 O children of Adam, let not Satan tempt you as he removed your parents from Paradise, stripping them of their clothing to show them their private parts. Indeed, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you do not see them. Indeed, We have made the devils allies to those who do not believe.

7:28 And when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"

7:29 Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves [in worship of Him] at every place [or time] of prostration, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return [to life] -

What rights are we talking about? Satan was a racist when God created Men and thought he was a better creation. It is not the way you are putting it.

Thanks for quoting your myth. I wonder who was there to record all those exact words.

Let's see if we can chat.

"7:12 [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him.
You created me from fire and created him from clay."

What is better? A man or an angel?

From the usual description of power, I would say that I would prefer to be an angel.

It seems that they can do more than humans.

If you do not agree then please tell us why humans are better than angels and why angels should bow to men.

Regards
DL

 

[Sabour]

Thanks for quoting your myth. I wonder who was there to record all those exact words.

Let's see if we can chat.

"7:12 [ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him.
You created me from fire and created him from clay."

What is better? A man or an angel?

From the usual description of power, I would say that I would prefer to be an angel.

It seems that they can do more than humans.

If you do not agree then please tell us why humans are better than angels and why angels should bow to men.

Regards
DL

Since you said thanks for quoting your myth, I would like to know what are your sources that told you Satan was demanding equal rights? Where did you get that from?

Satan is not an angel. And scholars say that God ordered Satan to bow for Him, and not for Adam.

We are all created by God, however since you mentioned angels, let me tell you that scholars say that we are superior to angels because we have free will while angels don't. Angels do as told by God exactly and don't have the ability to choose and act on their own. So a good and obedient person is far better than an angel.

 

[Greatest I am]

Since you said thanks for quoting your myth, I would like to know what are your sources that told you Satan was demanding equal rights? Where did you get that from?

Satan is not an angel. And scholars say that God ordered Satan to bow for Him, and not for Adam.

We are all created by God, however since you mentioned angels, let me tell you that scholars say that we are superior to angels because we have free will while angels don't. Angels do as told by God exactly and don't have the ability to choose and act on their own. So a good and obedient person is far better than an angel.

If Satan had/has no free will, how could she have rebelled or refused to bow?

That would be impossible for a creature without a free will. Right?

Further, if Satan did not go to Eden on her own to pester Eve, why did God order Satan to tempt Eve knowing she could not resist?

Regards
DL