Was the fall of Satan part of God's plan?

[Rival]

That is one interpretation, but there are others that indicate Lucifer ''became'' Satan.

Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?

Early on Jesus was called Lucifer. All of the Lucifer stuff started with the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. It's purely Christian.

 

[Mohsen]

Wow, that so interesting, Moshen. I explored Islam a few years ago after one of my grandmothers died. I was an atheist then, left Christianity, and was searching for answers. I found Islam to have much beauty, but could never wrap my mind around Sharia law.

Ah, the Shariah, before I comment on that, may I just say that I can empathise with your decision to apostate from your faith and follow an atheistic world view. I was there, but it didn't really hold much value to my existence. It was altogether too selfish an existence for me to feel spiritually nourished.

Now, for the shariah. This is still an hotly debated subject even among the jurists of Islam, The shariah is not a rigid law system, but flexible yet strong - like bamboo - however, it also bamboozles many of us due to its implementation in Muslim nations which have shariah as their law system. Take for example how shariah is practiced in the middle east and compare that to how it is practiced in Gambia, and we find differences - each specific to region and expected social norms, I beleive shariah law is quite often misrepresented as some sort of bogeyman when in fact, the nations with shariah actually have a lot less crime when compared to the modern democratic west.

When I was in the Kingdom of Arabia, I saw jewellery store owners leave their wares unattended while they went off to the mosque to do prayers - nothing ever got stolen. There were no cameras and theft would have been really easy. This is the result of shariah.

Shariah is a reformist law which seeks to prevent crime by addressing the social ills of society, and when we compare to the modern west we find the modern west lacking in these matters. The modern west would rather sell you "freedom" (something you was born with as your God given right) and this freedom allows you to steal and do crime, and the punishments for these crimes are hardly preventative measures for anyone else seeking to do the same.

I know many in the west will take issue with what I wrote, but they have not experienced true freedom like I have in Arabia. Where I was able to walk the nights in the darkest alleyways and receive hospitality instead of some bum trying to mug me for my watch.

Shariah, is not a law system of punishments, rather, it is more a system of preventative measures. And it works. ALbeit, works differently in different nations due to the nature of shariah being "flexible" enough to accomodate a regions norms.

I couldn't wrap my mind also around the ideas of Jesus, coming from a Christian background.

I don't think many Christians can either, it's an highly escapist and emotionally dogmatic position they invest in, which I find to be quite unstable.

I recently found out this past week that my father is half middle eastern, he learned of this news after he got married to my mom ...his father was adopted, but his bio parents were Syrian and Iranian. So, I guess this makes me 1/3/ middle eastern? To your point about the middle east and Islam not being widely accepted in the states, this is true. I never thought it was true, but my dad shared with me this week that he never wanted anyone to know because it would affect his business and perhaps how people view him.

It's the same here in gray old England, on the other side of the pond from where you live! Islam, is the current bogeyman... Judaism was first. Christianity escaped the wrath of secular extremism due to the churches becoming empty.

He finally wanted me to know the truth of my background, and I'm grateful. I see it as a gift, he sees it as a burden, I guess. I do wish I had known as a child though, but he was also raised in the Italian heritage, his own father never telling him. I think he is concerned I will pursue Islam again. He is Catholic, and it bothered him when I explored it a few years ago. Many people can't separate Islam from radical Islam and the conflicts within the middle east. The US is home to many Muslims, but secular law rules here, so the US offers the opportunity for people to believe as they wish, in freedom. Unlike the middle east, my life would look much different if I lived there. Choice is good.

Choice is always good. I say that religion is a personal thing. Between you and God. Declaring your faith should only ever be done openly once you have mustered conviction based on rational, reasonable and intrinsic understanding of your religion - because whether we like it or not - once people find out we belong to one faith or another, we somehow become the representative of it! It's a very responsible position to be in.

It's nice to read your story, because you are not Muslim from indoctrination, but from your own personal exploration.

Likewise, I found your story to be very endearing and I drew parallels with it.

God bless you Deidre, you've made my day that little bit more, special!

 

[Deidre]

Ahhh, @Mohsen ...I don't think I've heard it all explained quite like that, not even from my Muslim friends. I too feel that atheism never left me feeling satiated and I felt empty. Not all atheists feel that way, I can only speak for me. I will come back later as I have some questions. Your posts have brightened my day also, with your insights. Peace to you.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Ah, the Shariah, before I comment on that, may I just say that I can empathise with your decision to apostate from your faith and follow an atheistic world view. I was there, but it didn't really hold much value to my existence. It was altogether too selfish an existence for me to feel spiritually nourished.

Now, for the shariah. This is still an hotly debated subject even among the jurists of Islam, The shariah is not a rigid law system, but flexible yet strong - like bamboo - however, it also bamboozles many of us due to its implementation in Muslim nations which have shariah as their law system. Take for example how shariah is practiced in the middle east and compare that to how it is practiced in Gambia, and we find differences - each specific to region and expected social norms, I beleive shariah law is quite often misrepresented as some sort of bogeyman when in fact, the nations with shariah actually have a lot less crime when compared to the modern democratic west.

When I was in the Kingdom of Arabia, I saw jewellery store owners leave their wares unattended while they went off to the mosque to do prayers - nothing ever got stolen. There were no cameras and theft would have been really easy. This is the result of shariah.

Shariah is a reformist law which seeks to prevent crime by addressing the social ills of society, and when we compare to the modern west we find the modern west lacking in these matters. The modern west would rather sell you "freedom" (something you was born with as your God given right) and this freedom allows you to steal and do crime, and the punishments for these crimes are hardly preventative measures for anyone else seeking to do the same.

I know many in the west will take issue with what I wrote, but they have not experienced true freedom like I have in Arabia. Where I was able to walk the nights in the darkest alleyways and receive hospitality instead of some bum trying to mug me for my watch.

Shariah, is not a law system of punishments, rather, it is more a system of preventative measures. And it works. ALbeit, works differently in different nations due to the nature of shariah being "flexible" enough to accomodate a regions norms.



I don't think many Christians can either, it's an highly escapist and emotionally dogmatic position they invest in, which I find to be quite unstable.



It's the same here in gray old England, on the other side of the pond from where you live! Islam, is the current bogeyman... Judaism was first. Christianity escaped the wrath of secular extremism due to the churches becoming empty.



Choice is always good. I say that religion is a personal thing. Between you and God. Declaring your faith should only ever be done openly once you have mustered conviction based on rational, reasonable and intrinsic understanding of your religion - because whether we like it or not - once people find out we belong to one faith or another, we somehow become the representative of it! It's a very responsible position to be in.



Likewise, I found your story to be very endearing and I drew parallels with it.

God bless you Deidre, you've made my day that little bit more, special!

I would never feel at ease walking down the streets of a country who arrests and executes gays, where women feel like they will be blamed for sexual assault if they do not cover up, where you can only voice your religious opinions if you are part of the majority. I understand that how these issues get interpreted for individual Muslims varies widely, but the payoff of low crime is not enough for such a inhumane system, and I wouldn't call Arabia safe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not apologizing for the us. Our gun culture is disgusting and our violence is out of hand. But I can march in the streets and protest without fear of reprisal. I can condemn the status quo.

 

[Mohsen]

I would never feel at ease walking down the streets of a country who arrests and executes gays, where women feel like they will be blamed for sexual assault if they do not cover up, where you can only voice your religious opinions if you are part of the majority. I understand that how these issues get interpreted for individual Muslims varies widely, but the payoff of low crime is not enough for such a inhumane system, and I wouldn't call Arabia safe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not apologizing for the us. Our gun culture is disgusting and our violence is out of hand. But I can march in the streets and protest without fear of reprisal. I can condemn the status quo.

You ever been to Arabia? Or are you just playing up to the bogeyman narrative?

Would it make you feel better if i stated that Muslims don't exactly feel safe in America ??? Because that's also a polarity which I can present, given that you started this polarity here needlessly eh? Ironies do abound !

 

[Ponder This]

I meant God intended for the angel to rebel and had a plan for when it would happen...

Otherwise he could have just reasoned, I know this Angels going to rebel against me, and not made that angel , and instead only made the angels that would be faithful to him.

Isn't this a bit like saying that I intended white to have the first move in chess? And therefore, I made a plan for what would happen after white takes it's first move? But if I had instead intended black to have the first move, then I would have had to make a plan for after black takes it's first move?

How can you say that God could simply have made the angels be faithful to him and not rebel against Him when we have no way of knowing the consequences of that?

Don't you think whether or not the Angels rebelled had something to do with how God made those angels?

Otherwise, why would one Angel be inclined to Pride and rebellion and another Angel be inclined to just serve and obey?

Wouldn't it suggests that God made the Fallen Angels differently than the faithful angels?

Perhaps it does mean that God made them differently, in which case, we may never know why He would do something like that. Two edges make a pair of scissors. If I say the bottom half has rebelled against the top half, then would it have been better if I had never made a bottom half? Of course, then I would not have scissors.

I'm not saying it is "better" or "worse" for angels to "rebel" or not. But I am inclined to consider your question of "why?" ultimately irrelevant. We have no way of resolving how the world would turn out if things were "different" in that way. The only reason to question it is because we think we know better.

So, do you know better? Will you stand up to God and say, "This thing you have created is a mistake not worthy of my praise"?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You ever been to Arabia? Or are you just playing up to the bogeyman narrative?

Are you denying these things happen there?

 

[Mohsen]

Are you denying these things happen there?

I've never witnessed them, and I have lived there!

You seem like someone who is parroting media monkeyed narratives without having experienced life there yourself.

Look, in all fairness I couldn't tell you what custard tastes like if I haven't tasted it myself.

So please, spare us the repetitive troll narratives found on the lamestream, thanks.

I like to think that experience is the best testimony for a truth. My experiences in Arabia show me that the west has vilified Arabia for far too long and without merit.

Educate your opinion, don't feed your bias!

Peace

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I've never witnessed them, and I have lived there!

You seem like someone who is parroting media monkeyed narratives without having experienced life there yourself.

Look, in all fairness I couldn't tell you what custard tastes like if I haven't tasted it myself.

So please, spare us the repetitive troll narratives found on the lamestream, thanks.

I like to think that experience is the best testimony for a truth. My experiences in Arabia show me that the west has vilified Arabia for far too long and without merit.

Educate your opinion, don't feed your bias!

Peace

I haven't seen anyone shot before either, but I'm aware of gun violence through reporting that shoudnt be ignored in favor of personal narratives. After all, how do you know about variable crime statistics except through reporting?

It is an undeniable fact that gays and women are highly oppressed in many of the Arabian Peninsula. It is not trolling to say so. It would be cognitive bias to ignore it. And I say this as one of the most staunch atheist defenders of Muslims, because I don't believe it's innately connected with Islam, but there are real problems with human rights in the middle East.

 

[Mohsen]

I haven't seen anyone shot before either, but I'm aware of gun violence through reporting that shoudnt be ignored in favor of personal narratives. After all, how do you know about variable crime statistics except through reporting?

It is an undeniable fact that gays and women are highly oppressed in many of the Arabian Peninsula. It is not trolling to say so. It would be cognitive bias to ignore it. And I say this as one of the most staunch atheist defenders of Muslims, because I don't believe it's innately connected with Islam, but there are real problems with human rights in the middle East.

I saw a lot of gay men in Arabia... none of them were oppressed!

You seem to have an issue with people not being able to celebrate their gay status. In Arabia - sexuality and promiscuity is not the social norm and thus it is not pushed nor celebrated. It's not just celebrating being gay that is disliked but celebrating being straight is also disliked - sexuality is a very personal thing in Arabia and not something to be "proud" about. Contrast to the modern lewd west and we find that the west "celebrates" sexuality as if it was its birthday every single day of the bloody week lol.

Your case is non existent - your cake is not yours to eat, because poison is one of its ingredients !

Any other qualms? Or are we done here?

Peace

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I saw a lot of gay men in Arabia... none of them were oppressed!

You seem to have an issue with people not being able to celebrate their gay status. In Arabia - sexuality and promiscuity is not the social norm and thus it is not pushed nor celebrated. It's not just celebrating being gay that is disliked but celebrating being straight is also disliked - sexuality is a very personal thing in Arabia and not something to be "proud" about. Contrast to the modern lewd west and we find that the west "celebrates" sexuality as if it was its birthday every single day of the bloody week lol.

Your case is non existent - your cake is not yours to eat, because poison is one of its ingredients !

Peace

So they aren't oppressed, but raising a rainbow flag got 7 people arrested in Egypt just this week.
Egypt arrests 7 for raising rainbow flag at indy rock gig
They aren't oppressed, but it's illegal to be gay in SA and even cross dressing has gotten people arrested and whipped.
Nine Saudi Transvestites Jailed
These aren't made up things. They are real people who suffered and probably won't be saying the Arabian peninsula is ideal any time soon.
And once again, S.A. is just now talking about letting women drive.

 

[Mohsen]

So they aren't oppressed, but raising a rainbow flag got 7 people arrested in Egypt just this week.
Egypt arrests 7 for raising rainbow flag at indy rock gig
They aren't oppressed, but it's illegal to be gay in SA and even cross dressing has gotten people arrested and whipped.
Nine Saudi Transvestites Jailed
These aren't made up things. They are real people who suffered and probably won't be saying the Arabian peninsula is ideal any time soon.
And once again, S.A. is just now talking about letting women drive.

Raising a black flag with the shahadah on it in the USA would get a Muslim arrested!

Dressing as a Muslim in thowb and amamah gets one arrested in the USA.

Propagating Islam as the way to truth in the USA gets one arrested.

What's your point?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Raising a black flag with the shahadah on it in the USA would get a Muslim arrested!

Dressing as a Muslim in thowb and amamah gets one arrested in the USA.

Propagating Islam as the way to truth in the USA gets one arrested.

What's your point?

First of all, no it wouldn't. I see shahada flags every Ramadan. And we have mosques and all forms of Islamic dress as legal. Second of all, creating a flag duplicating ISIS will get objections because ISIS kills people, innocent people. Are you saying gays are enemies of the state?

Also, you're being remarkably quiet about women's issues.

 

[Mohsen]

First of all, no it wouldn't. I see shahada flags every Ramadan. And we have mosques and all forms of Islamic dress as legal. Second of all, creating a flag duplicating ISIS will get objections because ISIS kills people, innocent people. Are you saying gays are enemies of the state?

Also, you're being remarkably quiet about women's issues.

No I'm not, I'm just failing to see the relevance of your bias when you haven't been to Arabia yourself!

What can I expect from someone who calls themselves a digital artist though? Copy pasting into layers in Photoshop then doing a little jiggery pokery hardly constitutes as true art. Drawing a perfect circle free hand and playing with colours which you mix yourself on a palette however is altogether different when compared to the digital variants of cmyk and rgb lol.

Women are way more empowered in Arabia compared to the west where they are a compromised reality somewhere between an object and an ego! Lol

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No I'm not, I'm just failing to see the relevance of your bias when you haven't been to Arabia yourself!

Unless you're claiming reports like the ones I linked were fakes, whether or not I've been there doesn't make me less capable of commenting on current events. Any more than you having never seen a shootout on the American streets doesn't mean you can't comment on American crime, which you have.

What can I expect from someone who calls themselves a digital artist though? Copy pasting into layers in Photoshop then doing a little jiggery pokery hardly constitutes as true art. Drawing a perfect circle free hand and playing with colours which you mix yourself on a palette however is altogether different when compared to the digital variants of cmyk and rgb lol.

This is also pretty disingenuous. Instead of addressing my arguments you are trying to attack my person.

Women are way more empowered in Arabia compared to the west where they are a compromised reality somewhere between an object and an ego! Lol

Is it obectifying and ego to allow women to drive? To blame sexual assault on the clothing they're wearing? To vote regardless of clothing?
Egypt bans women from voting if they are wearing ‘revealing attire’ | Daily Mail Online

Edit: You know what, this is pretty off topic from the thread, so I'm going to stop here. If you want to make a one on one thread, we can do that.

 

[Mohsen]

Unless you're claiming reports like the ones I linked were fakes, whether or not I've been there doesn't make me less capable of commenting on current events. Any more than you having never seen a shootout on the American streets doesn't mean you can't comment on American crime, which you have.


This is also pretty disingenuous. Instead of addressing my arguments you are trying to attack my person.


Is it obectifying and ego to allow women to drive? To blame sexual assault on the clothing they're wearing? To vote regardless of clothing?
Egypt bans women from voting if they are wearing ‘revealing attire’ | Daily Mail Online

Edit: You know what, this is pretty off topic from the thread, so I'm going to stop here. If you want to make a one on one thread, we can do that.

Yawn - I've witnessed two shooting in the USA so you don't actually have a leg to stand on!

I've not witnessed sexism in Arabia but I have in the USA.

I've not experience xenophobia in Arabia but I have in the USA - in fact I've witnessed a particular brand of it titled islamophobia.

I've got example after example I can contrast to your ill gotten means which, I may add, do not justify your ends!

You should try travelling. It broadens your horizons, quite literally!!! Stop entertaining your self imposed ignorance and instead start to make a measure of truth. It can only serve you well to be informed through personal experience !!!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yawn - I've witnessed two shooting in the USA so you don't actually have a leg to stand on!

I've not witnessed sexism in Arabia but I have in the USA.

I've not experience xenophobia in Arabia but I have in the USA - in fact I've witnessed a particular brand of it titled islamophobia.

I've got example after example I can contrast to your ill gotten means which, I may add, do not justify your ends!

You should try travelling. It broadens your horizons, quite literally!!! Stop entertaining your self imposed ignorance and instead start to make a measure of truth. It can only serve you well to be informed through personal experience !!!

I haven't witnessed any shootings, and I live in a very progressive town so I don't really see sexism and islamophobia. But I know its there because I read.
You should try getting perspectives outside your own instead of assuming what you see is what you get. Certainly don't dismiss the concerns and struggles of others just because you dont see them.
Living in fear: Egypt's gay community - CNN

 

[Mohsen]

I haven't witnessed any shootings, and I live in a very progressive town so I don't really see sexism and islamophobia. But I know its there because I read.
You should try getting perspectives outside your own instead of assuming what you see is what you get. Certainly don't dismiss the concerns and struggles of others just because you dont see them.
Living in fear: Egypt's gay community - CNN

You're using lamestream media as your proof? Sorry but that's exactly what I am against. I like to believe that which I can measure and the likes of CNN /fox have been caught with their pants down many times. But thanks anyway, for showing me exactly what you think is a validating source lol CNN bloody heck! CNN IS HARDLY A RELIABLE SOURCE !

Next you'll be quoting tabloids as if they were academic sources

 

[DavidFirth]

you don't have to be, this forum has more than just you and me in it you know!!! Get over your self lol.

Well, I'm over your perspective and have been for 50 years.

Islam is a religion based on one man who succeeded in building his own little kingdom using people like you to do it. He obviously rewrote Hebrew text to serve his own agenda. I'm sorry you ended up getting caught up in his scheme.

 

[Mohsen]

Well, I'm over your perspective and have been for 50 years.

Islam is a religion based on one man who succeeded in building his own little kingdom using people like you to do it. He obviously rewrote Hebrew text to serve his own agenda. I'm sorry you ended up getting caught up in his scheme.

Yawn, you're 50 and repeat nonsense which has been debunked so many times it's now boring to even listen to... yet here you are, broken record!

I guess the old adage must be true - can't teach an old dog new tricks !

Enjoy the rest of your remaining years entertaining your self imposed ignorance !

Peace