Was the fall of Satan part of God's plan?

[DavidFirth]

Yawn, you're 50 and repeat nonsense which has been debunked so many times it's now boring to even listen to... yet here you are, broken record!

I guess the old adage must be true - can't teach an old dog new tricks !

Enjoy the rest of your remaining years entertaining your self imposed ignorance !

Peace

No, but I will enjoy walking with Christ now and forever. I'll never visit Mohammed's tomb or go to Mecca and I'll never miss or regret it.

Jesus Christ is all I'll ever need. I certainly don't need you around to say "Peace" when I see a world full of sin and rebellion. Only Jesus brings me peace.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You're using lamestream media as your proof? Sorry but that's exactly what I am against. I like to believe that which I can measure and the likes of CNN /fox have been caught with their pants down many times. But thanks anyway, for showing me exactly what you think is a validating source lol CNN bloody heck! CNN IS HARDLY A RELIABLE SOURCE !

Next you'll be quoting tabloids as if they were academic sources

Criticizing the source instead of the content is poor arguing. These stories can be corroborated by many sources including here:
Egypt arrests seven over 'gay wedding'
Here:
Egypt arrests seven
Or here:
Police arrest 6 'homosexuals' in raid on downtown Cairo flat - Politics - Egypt - Ahram Online
Or is it only 'lamestream' (how juvenile is that?) when it doesn't share your own biases?

 

[Mohsen]

Criticizing the source instead of the content is poor arguing. These stories can be corroborated by many sources including here:
Egypt arrests seven over 'gay wedding'
Here:
Egypt arrests seven over rainbow flag
Or here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OAI8QFggmMAM&usg=AOvVaw2uS_80ko6Yx79du0xhj12-
Or is it only 'lamestream' (how juvenile is that?) when it doesn't share your own biases?

CNN lol I still can't get over that. You're starting to sound a little unhinged - take a break! Sit down with a tea or something.

 

[Mohsen]

No, but I will enjoy walking with Christ now and forever. I'll never visit Mohammed's tomb or go to Mecca and I'll never miss or regret it.

Jesus Christ is all I'll ever need. I certainly don't need you around to say "Peace" when I see a world full of sin and rebellion. Only Jesus brings me peace.

I actually don't have a problem with that lol!

Too funny

 

[ADigitalArtist]

CNN lol I still can't get over that. You're starting to sound a little unhinged - take a break! Sit down with a tea or something.

None of those were CNN. But I guess we are done. If you aren't even willing to read anything negative from anyone about things for oppressed people in the middle East then there's no way to have a productive conversation.

 

[Mohsen]

None of those were CNN. But I guess we are done. If you aren't even willing to read anything negative from anyone about things for oppressed people in the middle East then there's no way to have a productive conversation.

You lost me at CNN. I'm now very bored of reading you, you blew it!

 

[Deidre]

Yawn - I've witnessed two shooting in the USA so you don't actually have a leg to stand on!

I've not witnessed sexism in Arabia but I have in the USA.

I've not experience xenophobia in Arabia but I have in the USA - in fact I've witnessed a particular brand of it titled islamophobia.

I've got example after example I can contrast to your ill gotten means which, I may add, do not justify your ends!

You should try travelling. It broadens your horizons, quite literally!!! Stop entertaining your self imposed ignorance and instead start to make a measure of truth. It can only serve you well to be informed through personal experience !!!

But, the truth is though Mohsen, I would be required by law to dress and act a particular way, if I visited for example...Iran. Now that I've been made aware of my family's middle eastern background, I'd love to visit Iran in the near future, but the way women are treated in some areas, does make me pause. More than pause. lol I think the hijab is a beautiful expression for example, but women shouldn't be forced in Iran to wear them, and the morality police patrolling the streets making sure they are wearing them ''properly.'' I do respect your opinions, but in the west, I read these things and it's all I have to go on. In and of itself, do you find flaws with Sharia Law?

 

[Mohsen]

But, the truth is though Mohsen, I would be required by law to dress and act a particular way, if I visited for example...Iran. Now that I've been made aware of my family's middle eastern background, I'd love to visit Iran in the near future, but the way women are treated in some areas, does make me pause. More than pause. lol I think the hijab is a beautiful expression for example, but women shouldn't be forced in Iran to wear them, and the morality police patrolling the streets making sure they are wearing them ''properly.''

5 points i'd like to present. But before I do, Deidre, you ever heard the saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" ????

1) uncovering the head in hot countries which have harsh sunlight is dangerous. Not just for women, but for men too. Take for example, Arabia, a desert country. Uncovering the head is a sure way to get sunstroke, or worse. Covering the head actually keeps it cooler than not covering it.

2) the Hijab was recommended because the Arab women of the time used to expose their breasts. The Hijab covers the hair and the breasts so that men do not gaze lustfully at the women. And the women do not give off signals which they are unaware of. It is a protection, a modesty recommended for those who obey God.

3) In parts of Iran, tourists dress how they want. As long as they aren't naked, it's all good! in other parts they must cover the hair because the social norms are different compared to the west, and those regions where this law is enforced are highly religious.

Try visiting Dubai, also a Muslim state - and you find that don't have to observe the Hijab. This is a prime example of regional differences in norms.

4) The social norms of a society may seem somewhat alien to outsiders. take for example how middle eastern folk cannot understand why men and women walk around practically naked in the west. They would ask "does your mother wear this mini skirt and boob tube?" and the westerner would reply "yes, why not?" much to the shock of the middle easterner. By the same token, a Westerner in the Middle East, wonders how the men and women have their heads covered all the time, and think it crazy. One thing I did notice while i lived in Arabia is how, sunbathing was not a good idea. You don't brown - you just burn! Covering the skin is HIGHLY recommended otherwise you will burn, and your skin will age prematurely.

5) Mary, the mother of Jesus pbuh, wore hijab. All virtuous women of the OT did so too. In fact it's highly recommended inside of the Abrahamic traditions to do so.

Now, with the hijab stuff out of the way, let's in sh'Allah (God willing) attempt to answer this:

I do respect your opinions, but in the west, I read these things and it's all I have to go on. In and of itself, do you find flaws with Sharia Law?

Not shariah law itself, like I mentioned before, the law is flexible like bamboo - but it does tend to bamboozle a lot of westerners who can't grasp the idea that the law is interpreted differently in various Muslim regions of this planet even though, say an American will see his secular law differ from state to state. This is something I find very odd. How the American can't make a validated comparison to their own nations stately laws.

But we are speaking about shariah. The issue I have is not with shariah itself, but the interpretation of it by some fuqaha (jurists). The good thing here is that the fuqaha will always convene and come to a consensus which fits the regions norms. Contrast this to the USA for example where secular law rules without check, and we find people like trump can stop Muslims from returning back to the USA based on whimsical stupidity.

Either way, law is law - it is designed not to infringe upon the rights of the people - but to promote safety and let freedom take its truest course within the confines of social norms. This is the one thing I find most westerners looking at Muslim nations through their uber-liberal lenses often fail to negotiate intellectually.

Hope this helps,

Peace

 

[Faithofchristian]

I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians tell me that the fall of Satan was never part of God's plan...

That simply doesn't make sense. It is biblical that God knows what happens in the future.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to rebel against him.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to be faithful to him.

He could just choose not to make the angels that will rebel and only make the angels that will be faithful to him.

The only other conclusion is that Satan's rebellion and fall was part of God's plan...View attachment 18981The puzzling question is why?

What makes you think that God knew before hand what Satan was going to do, before Satan did anything.

Where or who told you that?

God did not know what Satan was going to do before hand.

Let's see what scriptures will say about this.
In the book of Eziekle 28:13-15, Note that Satan at one time was a covering anointed Cherub that Satan stood over the Mercy Seat before the Throne of God.

Now in Verse 15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till, iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( iniquity ) being translated means ( lawlessness )

Notice the word ( till ) This means that God did not know what Satan was going to do.
( Till ) Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Therefore God did not know what Satan was up to, till Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Look up the definition of what the word
( Till ) stands to mean.

I saw John but I did not know John was going to do this, till it became evidence.

The same with satan, God did not know what Satan was going to do, till it became evidence. That Satan was Lawlessness.

Why is it that everyone thinks just because he is God, that God knows everything.

Maybe God does not want to know before hand what his creation will do.
Maybe God likes to see what his creation will do, without knowing before hand.

God has given to each and everyone free will to choose for themselves.

Therefore God also has free will, to choose not to know before hand what his creation will do.

 

[Spiderman]

What makes you think that God knew before hand what Satan was going to do, before Satan did anything.

Where or who told that?

God did not know what Satan was going to do before hand.

Let's see what scriptures will say about this.
In the book of Eziekle 28:13-15, Note that Satan at one time was a covering anointed Cherub that Satan stood over the Mercy Seat before the Throne of God.

Now in Verse 15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till, iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( iniquity ) being translated means ( lawlessness )

Notice the word ( till ) This means that God did not know what Satan was going to do.
( Till ) Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Therefore God did not know what Satan was up to, till Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Look up the definition of what the word
( Till ) stands to mean.

I saw John but I did not know John was going to do this, till it became evidence.

The same with satan, God did not know what Satan was going to do, till it became evidence. That Satan was Lawlessness.

I'm not sure about that, because it is biblical that God knows what's going to happen in the future

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'm not sure about that, because it is biblical that God knows what's going to happen in the future

Look just because he is God does not mean that God can not choose not to know what is going to happen before hand.

You, yourself has free will to choose or not to choose.
The same with God, God also has free will to choose whether he wants to know before hand on things.

Don't eliminate God's free will to choose or not to chose before hand.

 

[Phantasman]

I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians tell me that the fall of Satan was never part of God's plan...

That simply doesn't make sense. It is biblical that God knows what happens in the future.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to rebel against him.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to be faithful to him.

He could just choose not to make the angels that will rebel and only make the angels that will be faithful to him.

The only other conclusion is that Satan's rebellion and fall was part of God's plan...View attachment 18981The puzzling question is why?

,
Since I don't see the orthodox ideology as spiritually correct, I agree that what they say doesn't make sense.

The plan came after the event. The event was not created by the Father, but through his perfect grace allowed it to happen. Once it happened, God created the plan (which is referred to as the "beginning"). When one understands the beginning, they understand error and ignorance (imperfect) and Christs role in it's removal.

Gnosis teaches the spiritual truth of the beginning and doesn't portray it in a fairy tale type analogy (like the OT).

As Paul says, these things are " in high places" and he continues to say many times of the hidden knowledge.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians tell me that the fall of Satan was never part of God's plan...

That simply doesn't make sense. It is biblical that God knows what happens in the future.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to rebel against him.

God knows before he makes an angel if it's going to be faithful to him.

He could just choose not to make the angels that will rebel and only make the angels that will be faithful to him.

The only other conclusion is that Satan's rebellion and fall was part of God's plan...View attachment 18981The puzzling question is why?

First of all, At the time God created Satan, God did not know that Satan was Lawlessness.

In the book of Ezekiel 28:15--""You was perfect in your ways"

Notice God saying, that Satan was perfect in his ways" from the day he was created"

Till iniquity ( Lawlessness ) was found in him"

Iniquity means = Lawlessness.

Notice the word ( Till ) This means that God did Not know Satan was Lawlessness
( Till ) Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Let's say, I paid for a car, Hey the car is great, Till I found bad things going wrong with it.

Therefore Satan was perfect in all his ways.Till Lawlessness was found in Satan.

Therefore God did Not know beforehand that Satan was Lawlessness ( Till ) Lawlessness was found in him.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The only other conclusion is that Satan's rebellion and fall was part of God's plan...

Or that the rebellion never happened, because it's dumb.

Without satan and the Antichrist, things would be too boring.

Did the fall happen before or after Job, because in Job Satan is just an employee ... a DICK of an employee, but an employee nonetheless?

Who would Batman be without the Joker?

Lonely, apparently. I've played both Arkham Asylum and Arkham City and there are ... innuendos ... about their relationship.

You have to understand how free will works within God's will to understand why.

I understand free will is the go to when you want to blame the innocent or praise the guilty.

God chose to have children who could choose whether to do good or evil.

And then got mad when they didn't do what He wanted exactly.

Omniscience of all future eliminates free will; all our reality becomes a movie without any way for random events, even at the atomic level, to occur. That is not the reality we live in.

Based on what? Your emotional preference?

Let me ask you a question, if you were going to have 3 children, 9 granchildren, 27 great grandchildren... and you knew that one of them was going to go to the dark side but some of that one would produce GREAT AND IMPACTING children and grandchildren... would you decide not to have that child and not have the GREAT AND IMPACTING children?

I'm not in charge of how the kids are born. God is.

Jesus is talking about the awesome things that are happening.

Objectively speaking, how awesome was it? We have no follow up on nearly every single person who was healed. We don't see any real infrastructural change that reduced the bad things to begin with. Many followers were killed. The apostles never really "got" Jesus anyway. I'm just curious as to why we must claim Jesus was way more effective than he really was.

Demons don't have children making your post pointless

Depends on the religion?

But later in the book God basically brings to his attention his inability to understand the ways of One who layed the foundations of the world.

God should've given Job the prologue and then he'd know for sure.

4) The social norms of a society may seem somewhat alien to outsiders. take for example how middle eastern folk cannot understand why men and women walk around practically naked in the west. They would ask "does your mother wear this mini skirt and boob tube?" and the westerner would reply "yes, why not?" much to the shock of the middle easterner. By the same token, a Westerner in the Middle East, wonders how the men and women have their heads covered all the time, and think it crazy. One thing I did notice while i lived in Arabia is how, sunbathing was not a good idea. You don't brown - you just burn! Covering the skin is HIGHLY recommended otherwise you will burn, and your skin will age prematurely.

Now, I am the kind of person who cringes at the thought of being naked in the bathroom with the door closed, and I respect the desire to dress modestly. On the other hand, saying that wearing layers of clothing, even hiding the faces of some women depending on the country, because men can't control themselves just seems to be an insult to men. Maybe teach your men to stop being dicks. A woman shouldn't have to dress up like Rogue from the X-Men just to avoid getting harassed or worse.

Why is it that everyone thinks just because he is God, that God knows everything.

I think we can blame Plato and his "ideal forms" nonsense for this crap. Biblical God just simply isn't what people over-philosophized Him to be.

The same with God, God also has free will to choose whether he wants to know before hand on things.

The problem I have with THAT, though, is that now you make God not just incompetent, but negligent. If He just simply COULDN'T know everything, I'd be okay, but to suggest He can and DOESN'T, I'm sorry, but that's criminal.

 

[Enoch07]

I understand free will is the go to when you want to blame the innocent or praise the guilty.

Huh? Please explain to me how free will is responsible for victim blaming and guilty praising?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Or that the rebellion never happened, because it's dumb.


Did the fall happen before or after Job, because in Job Satan is just an employee ... a DICK of an employee, but an employee nonetheless?


Lonely, apparently. I've played both Arkham Asylum and Arkham City and there are ... innuendos ... about their relationship.


I understand free will is the go to when you want to blame the innocent or praise the guilty.


And then got mad when they didn't do what He wanted exactly.


Based on what? Your emotional preference?


I'm not in charge of how the kids are born. God is.


Objectively speaking, how awesome was it? We have no follow up on nearly every single person who was healed. We don't see any real infrastructural change that reduced the bad things to begin with. Many followers were killed. The apostles never really "got" Jesus anyway. I'm just curious as to why we must claim Jesus was way more effective than he really was.


Depends on the religion?


God should've given Job the prologue and then he'd know for sure.


Now, I am the kind of person who cringes at the thought of being naked in the bathroom with the door closed, and I respect the desire to dress modestly. On the other hand, saying that wearing layers of clothing, even hiding the faces of some women depending on the country, because men can't control themselves just seems to be an insult to men. Maybe teach your men to stop being dicks. A woman shouldn't have to dress up like Rogue from the X-Men just to avoid getting harassed or worse.


I think we can blame Plato and his "ideal forms" nonsense for this crap. Biblical God just simply isn't what people over-philosophized Him to be.


The problem I have with THAT, though, is that now you make God not just incompetent, but negligent. If He just simply COULDN'T know everything, I'd be okay, but to suggest He can and DOESN'T, I'm sorry, but that's criminal.

God didn't know that Satan was going to Rebelle against him.
God trust his creation enough not to spy on them ahead time.

If you have children do you follow them around every minute to see what their doing.
I would have to say, you don't, Why ?
Because you want to trust them.

So God did the same, without having to check to see beforehand what his creation was doing.

Every human being is responsible for their own life. Don't put the blame over on someone else for your own failure.

All I see with you, is that for every failure that comes down in your life, you want to put the blame over on someone else.
When it's your own failure.

 

[Kenny]

'm not in charge of how the kids are born. God is.

We are in charge of how we bring up the kids... so it is in our court.

 

[Mohsen]

Now, I am the kind of person who cringes at the thought of being naked in the bathroom with the door closed

TMI

and I respect the desire to dress modestly.

Some women do it for the sake of protecting their beauty from the elements, as I had explained in the segment you quoted.

On the other hand, saying that wearing layers of clothing, even hiding the faces of some women depending on the country, because men can't control themselves just seems to be an insult to men. Maybe teach your men to stop being dicks. A woman shouldn't have to dress up like Rogue from the X-Men just to avoid getting harassed or worse.

I didn't say that.

I think you have straw manned me, and also presented an "us vs them" narrative by asking me to teach men who are mine (but are not)... maybe read my post again and realise with some certainty that I don't have an issue with what women wear - they are not my problem. Rather, when it comes to the women of my own household who may on occasion ask me "does my bum look big in this?" my response would be brutally honest... of course, there are boundaries - for example a mother asking her son that question is considered disrespectful in many cultures around the world, and not just the Arabian alone. Also, I'm not an Arab, but Indian. And the cultural norm of covering the body is also extant in the parts of India I come from. And though I was born and raised in the U.K, this doesn't mean the U.K is lewd as a whole, rather, we have men and women in the U.K who consider modesty in many ways, and some who do not care for it.

You see, I do not advocate for any of this, rather, I present validations which are obvious once you take the time to think about them.

peace